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Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

bighospitality.co.uk

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Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#291

Post by Iv »

Vinnl wrote: post #148
Iv wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that's a mix of ethical and environmental concerns. I agree that there is a point in the belief that it is unethical to kill animals. That's not the most unethical thing that is happening in the world, there are a lot of things to argue about, but in general, I agree that in an ideal world, we should not do that. The environmental concerns, I only buy half-heartedly. I don't really believe that land-owners wil…

> But I reduced my consumption more and more. It was surprising to see how my taste changed. I experienced the same, which was really odd. I guess you can learn to like (or dislike) a taste. The other thing I noticed that concerns about suffering started to weigh far stronger for me once the environmental concerns made me stop eating meat. I think that I subconsciously ignored or trivialised a lot of the information…

The animal suffering aspect kind of was the start for me. I quickly recognized the counter-arguments were very poor. The only two lines of arguments that one may defend are "Animals don't suffer" or "It is natural for humans to exploit animals". I don't hold any of these opinions and therefore I could not defend meat production ethically.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#292

Post by Iv »

nicoburns wrote: post #125
Iv wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that's a mix of ethical and environmental concerns. I agree that there is a point in the belief that it is unethical to kill animals. That's not the most unethical thing that is happening in the world, there are a lot of things to argue about, but in general, I agree that in an ideal world, we should not do that. The environmental concerns, I only buy half-heartedly. I don't really believe that land-owners wil…

> It is just not practical for me to go full-veg, where I live I would need to cook one hour a day for it, Why does eating meat mean you can cook less?

Because then I can buy pre-cooked food. I live in countryside Japan where it does not cost a lot more to buy a bento than to cook one yourself.

Before moving in, I used to think it should be easy to be vegetarian in a Buddhist country but it is not. Japan's culinary habit is that a good meal needs to have a lot of different ingredients in it. From a dietetics point of view, that's great but it often means that even in most salads, you'll have a few pieces of bacon or chicken, a shrimg or some grains of minced meat.

That still makes for a very meat-light diet and would switch to a no-meat-at-all in a heartbeat if those bentos and salads came in vegetarian versions, but that makes it almost impossible to avoid meat.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#293

Post by Iv »

everythingswan wrote: post #55
Iv wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that's a mix of ethical and environmental concerns. I agree that there is a point in the belief that it is unethical to kill animals. That's not the most unethical thing that is happening in the world, there are a lot of things to argue about, but in general, I agree that in an ideal world, we should not do that. The environmental concerns, I only buy half-heartedly. I don't really believe that land-owners wil…

What are the constraints based on where you live? I knew someone who grew up heavily on beef since she was from a small, rural country. Is it a similar reason? I'm interested in food insecurity and related things, which is why I ask.

I live in countryside Japan where it does not cost a lot more to buy a bento than to cook one yourself.

Before moving in, I used to think it should be easy to be vegetarian in a Buddhist country but it is not. Japan's culinary habit is that a good meal needs to have a lot of different ingredients in it. From a dietetics point of view, that's great but it often means that even in most salads, you'll have a few pieces of bacon or chicken, a shrimp or some grains of minced meat.

That still makes for a very meat-light diet and I would switch to a no-meat-at-all in a heartbeat if those bentos and salads came in vegetarian versions, but that makes it almost impossible to totally avoid meat.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#294

Post by Iv »

_bfhp wrote: post #123
Iv wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that's a mix of ethical and environmental concerns. I agree that there is a point in the belief that it is unethical to kill animals. That's not the most unethical thing that is happening in the world, there are a lot of things to argue about, but in general, I agree that in an ideal world, we should not do that. The environmental concerns, I only buy half-heartedly. I don't really believe that land-owners wil…

I find the ethical-philosophical side of it interesting. In the philosophy of ethics, thought experiments can be helpful (or puzzling), like the trolley problem or the Categorical Imperative. So: Imagine if a wizard finished casting a very complicated and resource-intensive spell and the result is that every living cow, pig, chicken and turkey in the meat industry were replaced with a clone of a dog you've met. In th…

Wouldn't work on me, I have close to a hatred toward dogs :-)

But I grew up in the countryside, I knew some cows and goats, heard the sad cry of the cows when you take their calves away. The reason why I eat very little beef and pork now but have less problems with chicken and fish is because I do feel different about them.

See I used to be more concerned about the ethics of animal exploitation as a kid than as an adult. (My experience was with free range animals though.) One of the questions I often came back at as a kid was "Do the animals understand what is happening? Why don't they try to escape?" It puzzled me that the cattle seemed to love their captors. Food was more primordial to them than freedom.

Then I realized some things: most humans would take such a deal. Security vs freedom. If I offered you to double your life expectancy (which is basically what wild vs farm animals experience), to feed and cure you, provide a more comfortable shelter than you could be able to get on your own, would you object to me eating your meat at a determined date?

I know I would refuse, I used to think most humans would but nowadays I am far less optimistic about that, and I am pretty certain that most animals would sign in.

I still think the whole system is unethical and an ideal world should not have it, so I do limit my meat consumption, I don't participate in the boohooing of vegans. I just don't see it as the highest priority ethical concern right now.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#295

Post by Iv »

roenxi wrote: post #142
_bfhp wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the ethical-philosophical side of it interesting. In the philosophy of ethics, thought experiments can be helpful (or puzzling), like the trolley problem or the Categorical Imperative. So: Imagine if a wizard finished casting a very complicated and resource-intensive spell and the result is that every living cow, pig, chicken and turkey in the meat industry were replaced with a clone of a dog you've met. In th…

But the ethical base-case is potentially that none of those cows, pigs, chickens or turkeys are ever born. Case by case we couldn't say, but statistically a lot of farm animals are going to be reliant on human logistics, organisation and protection to survive in the numbers that they do. So the question might reasonably be 'are the conditions these animals face worse than never existing?'.

I never understood that logic. I don't see why more animals (or humans) existing ought to be considered a good thing?

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#296

Post by takee »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #56
ultim8k wrote: post #31

Too bad that vegan food is mostly carbs and tasteless stuff like tofu. There are so many tasty and healthy vegetables and great veggie recipes but you have to cook at home because you can't find them outside.

At a very superficial level to this omnivore, vegan food appears to be moving away from tofu and more towards Impossible Meat. And that's a step backwards from this omnivore's perspective. I like vegan burgers because they contain lots of tasty ingredients like black beans, corn & cauliflower. I don't want pseudo-meat because I still eat meat occasionally. Hydrolized Pea Protein is not "real food" IMO. As for tofu: m…

Couldn't agree more. Inspite of being a hardcore meat-eater, I often enjoy authentic vegan food because of the actual plant based ingredients such as beans, beatroot and corn. The flavors come together quite nicely in an old school veggie bean patty. The trend with impossible meats disappoints me.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#298

Post by pattisapu »

sandworm101 wrote: post #109

How much of this is changing eating pasterns, and how much of this is the re-labeling of foods? "Vegan" is no doubt now a sales point, but many vegan foods have been eaten for centuries without that label attached. Slapping the sticker on them now doesn't mean that anything has changed beyond how we do the count. I also question the "vegan" label itself. Exactly what type of vegan are they talking about? Veganism isn…

Interesting point--I suppose many common foods could be freshly branded as vegan -- black bean burritos, garden salads, aloo gobi, lentil soup, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, guacamole, salsa, tempura, juice, beer nuts, bottled water, cola, cotton candy, spaghetti in marinara sauce, falafels, tortilla chips, fried rice, popsicles, single malt scotch . . .

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#299

Post by roenxi »

Iv wrote: post #295
roenxi wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the ethical base-case is potentially that none of those cows, pigs, chickens or turkeys are ever born. Case by case we couldn't say, but statistically a lot of farm animals are going to be reliant on human logistics, organisation and protection to survive in the numbers that they do. So the question might reasonably be 'are the conditions these animals face worse than never existing?'.

I never understood that logic. I don't see why more animals (or humans) existing ought to be considered a good thing?

That isn't the core of the argument; the point is that there is no good outcome for most of those animals. The choice is exist, live and be slaughtered for food vs. never being born.

Not an enviable choice, but it confounds some of the simple ethical arguments for, eg, vegetarianism.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#300

Post by ptah »

saagarjha wrote: post #231
povertyworld wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have vegans given up their cars yet? Veganism is a nice gesture, but really vegans need to step it up and ditch the cars if they care about the Earth.

They're doing a lot better than the people who eat meat and have cars.

also doing better than the people that have ditched cars and continue to eat meat
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