Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need • Hacker News Board

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#61

Post by bdcravens » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

dentemple wrote: post #8

This is a valid reason to consider a trade school model ("coding bootcamps") to fill this niche. Let Computer Science programs focus on the Computer "Science", while trade schools focus on fulfilling direct company needs. Of course, we need a _ton_ more oversight involved to ensure that bootcamps are actually graduating people with a job-ready skillset.

As long as you can avoid the bootcamps that try to teach you 3-4 frameworks/languages in a 4 month program. You could spend 4 months just getting good at bash.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#62

Post by 6thaccount2 » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

zaphod12 wrote: post #21

I didn't even know schools had 'Software Engineering programs. I've met plenty of Computer Science grads, though. It's truly different. Engineering is more like trade school, Computer Science is foundational. I'll probably hire you with a CS degree, but I know I'm going to need to teach you how to be a software engineer.

Engineering is nothing like a trade school if you mean Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering... etc (probably not what you meant here by context, but I felt I should clarify).

You basically do 4 years of math and physics with several years of calculus, differential equations, numerical methods, programming, and solving difficult problems. It is nothing like a trade school (no offense to that line of work...they probably make more money than me :)).

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#63

Post by bdcravens » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

dyarosla wrote: post #9

dentemple wrote: post #8

This is a valid reason to consider a trade school model ("coding bootcamps") to fill this niche. Let Computer Science programs focus on the Computer "Science", while trade schools focus on fulfilling direct company needs. Of course, we need a _ton_ more oversight involved to ensure that bootcamps are actually graduating people with a job-ready skillset.

This won’t happen until the signalling that comes with hiring from [elite school] diminishes and/or the signalling that comes with hiring from [code bootcamp] surpasses it.

If bootcamps churn out employees who are productive from day 1 that will fix the problem. However, when you see a resume from a bootcamper who over the course of 4 months learned Linux, AWS, Javascript, jQuery, Node, SQL, Ruby on Rails, and React, it invites skepticism.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#64

Post by bdcravens » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #31

This is because most grads are one step higher than interns. They really dont know much (and shouldnt be expected to) because they lack real experience. Startups higher them because they are cheap and will work hard long hours without question. It's the trade off they are willing to accept.

VC often puts pressure to increase headcount, and unfortunately, those doing the hiring are willing to look the other way when that's the standard for accountability as opposed to productivity.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#65

Post by ProAm » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #64

ProAm wrote: post #31

This is because most grads are one step higher than interns. They really dont know much (and shouldnt be expected to) because they lack real experience. Startups higher them because they are cheap and will work hard long hours without question. It's the trade off they are willing to accept.

VC often puts pressure to increase headcount, and unfortunately, those doing the hiring are willing to look the other way when that's the standard for accountability as opposed to productivity.

Yeah I agree, it makes sense and Im not saying its wrong either. In the atmosphere of move fast and break things its often okay to turn out bad code and fix it later once you get your hockey stick of momentum (which in some cases is perfectly acceptable). Hiring truly senior people might slow that down because they know better and want more polish or thoughtfulness put onto a product. I can see it both ways. Im not sure if Ive ever encountered a hiring manager that expect much out of a recent college grad, especially if its an undergrad. But they can learn fast and are usually eager, which is good for a startup where positivity and attitude are needed to keep moving forward.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#66

Post by kradroy » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC

sigstoat wrote: post #43

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. Most Computer Science students are looking for careers in Software Engineering. So ultimately it is called computer science for the wrong reason.

> Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. name three.

There are plenty, but they're mostly graduate degree programs. A full undergraduate degree in software engineering is probably impractical, as it were.

CMU offers a minor in Soft. Eng. It requires 6 courses (one is fluff) and a minimum 8 week internship in industry. What's also good about this CMU minor is that it's open to students of any major.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#67

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #41

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. Most Computer Science students are looking for careers in Software Engineering. So ultimately it is called computer science for the wrong reason.

What schools? I don't know of any such degree at MIT, CMU, Berkeley, UIUC or any other top school. At best it will be a single course or some added certification to your degree, and even then they will teach you software engineering processes, not Node.js and React.

I went to CMU (econ major/CS minor) , and we absolutely had such a degree. It was called Information Systems, and generally taught people the skills needed to become a web developer. Skills such as front end developement, Ruby on rails, ect, as well as even some mobile dev electives I think.

Unfortunately, even though it was one of the best such programs in the world, and turned out graduates who made 80k+, it was still generally looked down upon, as the degree that people took who "couldn't get into Computer Science".

It is unfortunate that people in academia severely look down upon anything that has a more practical focus on useful skills, and only respect theoretical studies.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#68

Post by coybanana » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

During my undergrad, I took an elective course from a visiting Professor on TDD. I found that directly relevant to work experience afterwards. That said, I wouldn't say my core CS classes were useless at all.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#69

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

sigstoat wrote: post #43

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. Most Computer Science students are looking for careers in Software Engineering. So ultimately it is called computer science for the wrong reason.

> Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. name three.

It is generally called something else.

The modern day web dev degree is called "Information Systems". Top schools offer it, but it is generally looked down upon as the degree that people take who couldn't get into Computer Science.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#70

Post by mr_tristan » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

mreome wrote: post #27

Isn't this just observing the fact that college isn't the same as work experience, and only provides the base skill-set needed to enter enter the industry? "When you join a startup, there’s a lot of emphasis on the design of the application, reusability and clean code, and the ability to conduct and undergo code reviews, as well as the ability to think of and build systems that can scale based on users and geography"…

I'm not sure why some think that a university degree should mean you're ready to be an effective professional engineer from day 1, let alone year 3.

I swear this is another facet of agism: some think that the 22 year old with a 4 year degree is nearly as valuable as the 40 year old professional, just needs some language experience and wham! Ready to go!