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Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

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Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#51

Post by [deleted] »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #45
geebee wrote: post #10

Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…

>I have had to find minimum cost paths in a tree, though. Umm... every path is a minimum cost path in a tree, because there’s exactly one path between any two vertices.

[deleted]

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#52

Post by w8rbt »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #45
geebee wrote: post #10

Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…

>I have had to find minimum cost paths in a tree, though. Umm... every path is a minimum cost path in a tree, because there’s exactly one path between any two vertices.

Non CS people may not understand this at first, but you are exactly right. A 'tree' is connected and has n-1 edges. So there can only be precisely one path between any pair of vertices.

He may have meant a general connected graph (not specifically a tree). In which case, there could be multiple paths and some may be cheaper than others.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#53

Post by joker3 »

manfredo wrote: post #12

Some highlights that I felt were very on point: > Students are taught formal testing methods such as static analysis, which checks code without actually running it. This helps them understand how to test software programs, but it doesn’t address the testing of distributed systems, web services, and infrastructure resiliency. Examination of these types of user interfaces and back-end systems is essential, Devadiga say…

What are you going to take out of the curriculum to make room for that? There are limits on how much you can teach in four years, and we're already at that point.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#54

Post by geebee »

w8rbt wrote: post #52
layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have had to find minimum cost paths in a tree, though. Umm... every path is a minimum cost path in a tree, because there’s exactly one path between any two vertices.

Non CS people may not understand this at first, but you are exactly right. A 'tree' is connected and has n-1 edges. So there can only be precisely one path between any pair of vertices. He may have meant a general connected graph (not specifically a tree). In which case, there could be multiple paths and some may be cheaper than others.

That’s a good guess/intuition - you’re correct that it wasn’t a binary tree strictly speaking. It was a situation where each node could activated by conditions on sub nodes, with a cost associated with activating each node. Also, in different scenarios, the tree would come with a different set nodes already activated. So the question was to figure out the minimum cost set of activations and in which order.

It wasn’t a graph though as there was a unique path from the root to each leaf

That’s about as well as I’m going to do here it was a while ago...

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#55

Post by yodsanklai »

ericd wrote: post #20
hildaman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this. A good Computer Science program must have enough software development curriculum that people actually learn to write code.

MIT's was (is?) heavy on theory, light on coding practice. I still think it was a pretty good program, they just expected that you'd learn to program outside of class.

> light on coding practice

I did for fun two MIT graduate students labs (operating systems, and distributed system) that complement the lectures.

https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2014/overview.html http://nil.csail.mit.edu/6.824/2015/

I found them very challenging and interesting. It took me a few weeks to complete them, and I didn't even do the "project" part which was more open-ended.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#56

Post by all_blue_chucks »

sigstoat wrote: post #43
all_blue_chucks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. Most Computer Science students are looking for careers in Software Engineering. So ultimately it is called computer science for the wrong reason.

> Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. name three.

Iowa State University: http://catalog.iastate.edu/collegeofengineering/softwareengi...

UC Irvine: https://www.informatics.uci.edu/undergrad/bs-software-engine...

Penn State: https://behrend.psu.edu/school-of-engineering/academic-progr...

Those three schools are > 30k students each.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#57

Post by slothtrop »

Even startups should be willing to train. The skills really aren't that hard to pick up with the right mindset and knowledge a CS grad ought to have.

We had an intern come in that was still stuck in that student-mode of needing to be told everything and not asking pointed enough questions. After a few weeks they were up to speed and productive.

Frankly even experienced workers will still require a period to absorb specific knowledge.

I think the time required for fresh grads to be productive is way, way overstated and overestimated provided they have the right direction.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#58

Post by hysan »

zaphod12 wrote: post #21

I didn't even know schools had 'Software Engineering programs. I've met plenty of Computer Science grads, though. It's truly different. Engineering is more like trade school, Computer Science is foundational. I'll probably hire you with a CS degree, but I know I'm going to need to teach you how to be a software engineer.

Depends on the school you go to as others have pointed out. I spoke to the head of the CS department at a local university this year; he wanted to pick my brain as a bootcamp instructor on the industry. I learned that they had already copied parts of what bootcamps were doing and had many plans to try and stay ahead of other universities doing the same thing (lots of ads for these follow me around). It was a very interesting conversation and it left me believing that the future wave of CS grads will have a much better mix of theory and application.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#59

Post by cle »

cameronbrown wrote: post #30
geebee wrote: post #10

Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…

The questions FAANG ask should not be the questions a startup asks... FAANG have to deal with measuring candidates at huge scale, and have literally too much talent coming through the door. A hiring decision in a startup can be a series of life or death decisions. I think algorithms questions are an OK litmus test for being able to program, but it shouldn't be everything or even 1/4 of an interview at a small company…

> FAANG...have literally too much talent coming through the door

From first hand experience, I would strongly disagree...

I won't beat the dead horse of the sad state of tech interviews, but just wanted to point out that this statement does not align with my experience at all.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#60

Post by bdcravens »

paxys wrote: post #7

The skills startups want are taught at coding bootcamps, not universities. The degree is called computer science for a reason.

Startups need developers who can hit the ground running and solve problems quickly. Many bootcamps focus on bulletpoints, not depth.
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