This is because most grads are one step higher than interns. They really dont know much (and shouldnt be expected to) because they lack real experience. Startups higher them because they are cheap and will work hard long hours without question. It's the trade off they are willing to accept.
Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
31–40 of 181 posts
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree with this. A good Computer Science program must have enough software development curriculum that people actually learn to write code.
MIT's was (is?) heavy on theory, light on coding practice. I still think it was a pretty good program, they just expected that you'd learn to program outside of class.
I took the 6.001 edX courses a while back. Introduction to Computer Science and Programming in Python--actually broken in 2 parts for edX.
Yeah, it came across to me that the expectation was that you'd learn to program mostly outside of the course. Or, really, that you already had a reasonable grasp on the basic concepts. Otherwise I think that course would feel to most people like being tossed into the deep end of the pool from a great height.
To be sure, with the campus version of the class there would be recitation sessions and other resources to get help on the programming side. There's also a companion textbook that goes into more Python details. But that's certainly not a class to "learn to program," much less how to work on a command line, use an editor, etc.
That may be reasonable for an MIT CS curriculum but most other majors probably don't have the same degree of implied prerequisites.
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#33It could be that schools cater to large companies' needs because they pay their employees the most and offer the highest number of jobs, and thus offer the best graduation statistics for those schools?
IME, it is because colleges, and specifically tenured college professors in CS and software engineering departments, remain woefully behind the times when it comes to relevant engineering skills.
And the latter have little motivation to stay current.
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#34Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…
At what point is a company no longer a startup and just a small business looking for talent? I ask because my view of a startup that isn’t a unicorn worth millions within its first few years (where rapid growth will encourage a hiring spree) is its usually a handful people and some office space.
Are typical start ups really doing whiteboard interviews during their early stages? I expect white boarding from a company like Uber or Discord but don’t most still hire based on networks and recommendations?
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
This won’t happen until the signalling that comes with hiring from [elite school] diminishes and/or the signalling that comes with hiring from [code bootcamp] surpasses it.
The signaling from [elite school] doesn't matter as much (to that applicant's competitors) if there aren't enough elite school graduates to fill positions. A startup can hold out for MIT grads for as long as they want, but they ain't getting one if every other startup is doing the same. _Someone_ is getting hired at the end of the day. A company that's looking to grow rapidly can't hold out forever.
I mean yes, some bootcamps have started cementing their own signal too (see Lambda) but I don’t know whether that many code bootcamps will surpass [second tier schools]’ signals. You are right tho that there will be a supply problem either way.
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#36[deleted]
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#37The skills startups want are taught at coding bootcamps, not universities. The degree is called computer science for a reason.
Just curious if anyone here has attended or graduated from Neumont College, or a school like it. Seems to be focused on solving this problem.
I have no affiliation with them, but like the model.
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#38The skills startups want are taught at coding bootcamps, not universities. The degree is called computer science for a reason.
I think this might be true of the startup is focused on building a web app since that's what most bootcamps teach. From what I've seen bootcamp grads are weaker candidates than CS grads because at least CS grads know enough theory and engineering to learn how to build something.
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree with this. A good Computer Science program must have enough software development curriculum that people actually learn to write code.
MIT's was (is?) heavy on theory, light on coding practice. I still think it was a pretty good program, they just expected that you'd learn to program outside of class.
I'm not an MIT grad, but this has been my approach over the past few years when I decided I needed to educate myself on more paradigms rather than more languages. I found it less helpful to expand my skillset of similarly-styled languages and far more helpful to learn languages that are fundamentally different than the ones I already knew. Basically, I decided I should learn Lisp instead of yet another C-style language.
The end result is nice little feedback loop of far better understanding of the theory and concepts behind the code that I write feeding into writing better code, which then feeds back into better understanding. So now when I help peers (especially friends still in college), I focus less on the language and more on helping the concept click for them.
I can't say how well this works in practice in a university -- it sure seems to work for MIT -- but I know that in my professional life it has made just about everything I do far easier to reason about and my work is all the better for it.
Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need
#40Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…
At what point is a company no longer a startup and just a small business looking for talent? I ask because my view of a startup that isn’t a unicorn worth millions within its first few years (where rapid growth will encourage a hiring spree) is its usually a handful people and some office space. Are typical start ups really doing whiteboard interviews during their early stages? I expect white boarding from a company…
I can't speak for more recently, but a < 10 person startup I interned at the summer 2014 had me do a number of whiteboard-style interview problems (although remotely, due to how far away I was).