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How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

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Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#101

Post by pharke »

legulere wrote: post #86

> bridges are so sturdy and last so long What a joke, when you see how all the bridges built in the 60s and 70s are crumbling apart.

That's actually solvable by using another product of high-heat processes, basaltic rebar. The main problem with concrete infrastructure is that water eventually infiltrates down to the rebar and wire mesh used to add tensile strength causing it to rust and expand which breaks apart the concrete. If you use something with equivalent tensile strength that doesn't rust then you get construction that lasts many, many decades longer.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#102

Post by pharke »

I think his first point about carbon capture probably deserves more attention. It's likely the most sellable strategy and it also doesn't depend on the location where it is carried out. It has the benefits of possibly producing some goods that can be used and there is prior history of this working. If we look at the Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum we see a similar increase in global temperatures due to carbon dioxide release, albeit over a much longer timeline. But we also see a drastic reduction of those carbon dioxide levels. One theory as to how the global CO2 levels were reduced is algal biosequestration. Can we duplicate this at an industrial scale? We're already promoting the growth of algae unintentionally with fertilizer runoff, could we do this intentionally in a location that would minimize harm in order to offset carbon emissions?

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#103

Post by twic »

pharke wrote: post #102

I think his first point about carbon capture probably deserves more attention. It's likely the most sellable strategy and it also doesn't depend on the location where it is carried out. It has the benefits of possibly producing some goods that can be used and there is prior history of this working. If we look at the Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum we see a similar increase in global temperatures due to carbon dioxid…

There has been quite a bit of work on ocean fertilization, to increase phytoplankton photosynthesis, but no killer app yet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_fertilization

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#104

Post by lozenge »

smackthatthro wrote: post #77
godelski wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's three necessities I see in a green scale initiative: carbon tax, nuclear, and sequestration (CC). I also have a hard time taking anyone serially if they don't talk about how we need a diversified energy portfolio nor understand the difficulties of energy density. I feel like many repeat popular points but do not spend time trying to understand. I think that's how we get politicians that consider climate chang…

Anti-scientific, or we learned from our mistakes? We can barely build a bridge that lasts for 50 years, but somehow we are going to magically build containment units for waste which last 1,000s? The science has shown us that Nuclear electricity is incredibly dangerous, and that humans are mostly too incompetent to maintain it safely. I say this as the child of a Nuclear Physicist who spent half of his life working on…

Coal based power causes 800,000 premature deaths every year, can we shut them down for their incompetence?

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#105

Post by [deleted] »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #59
news_to_me wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, now the price of steel skyrockets and brings up the cost of everything that uses steel. Maybe we can find a way to do this in a less economically violent way?

You can spend trillions on reduction or you can spend trillions on adaptation or you can die. There's no cheap option.

[deleted]

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#106

Post by [deleted] »

garmaine wrote: post #36
SECProto wrote: post #33

> Making steel and other materials—such as cement, plastic, glass, aluminum, and paper—is the third biggest contributor of greenhouse gases, behind agriculture and making electricity While I agree in broad terms that eliminating greenhouse gases in the materials sector is important medium-term, I agree with other posters here that we need to focus hard on implementing solutions we DO have now - specifically, in the e…

It’s not the source of power. It’s the chemical process itself. You get oxygen out of a metal oxide by binding it with carbon and releasing the CO2. Canadian smelting is just as dirty in this respect. The only other alternative is electrolyzing water to get hydrogen, which binds with the metal oxide’s oxygen to make water again. But not only is this really inefficient by comparison, but now you’re adding O2 to the at…

[deleted]

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#107

Post by bryanlarsen »

einpoklum wrote: post #63
bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

My climate change plan is simple: a ratcheting carbon fee with dividend[1], together with a carbon tariff as part of a climate club[2] The industries where it's easy will take the easy way to avoid the carbon fee. The industries where it's hard will pay the fee but will see the ratchet coming and will be furiously researching alternatives. Worse come to worse, at some point the fee will be more than sequestration cos…

"Fee"? "Dividend"? That's not a plan to stop and reverse climate change, that's a plan for financiers and capitalists to trade in the blame for continuing climate change. No no, emissions need to be cut - for real. There need to be schedules and (tax-based) funding to help make this happen. And - an expropriation of intellectual property so that technologies developed to help this happen aren't controlled by any sing…

The plan takes from the rich and gives to the poor. It could also be called a "Carbon Tax & Benefit". But instead we use right-friendly words for a very left-friendly plan.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#108

Post by bryanlarsen »

thereisnospork wrote: post #76
garmaine wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t something more research will solve. Metals exist in ores as oxides. To get pure metal you have to reduce them, and that oxygen had to go somewhere, bound to something. There is no net zero process that will magic away those pesky atoms.

Eh, its perfectly doable to make those atoms wind up as O2, it is just expensive. All we need to do to solve climate change, today, is accept a drastically lower standard of living. Hence why it isn't happening, (and won't happen until people start dying).

> accept a drastically lower standard of living

With sequestration costs at $100 - $300 per tonne for worst-case industries, climate change will cost trillions world-wide. That's a lot of money, but hardly a "drastically lower standard of living". Compare with Iraq war, or Apollo + Vietnam. Much less sacrifice than WW2.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#109

Post by GhettoMaestro »

imtringued wrote: post #82
dev_dull wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more about why they don't make sense? My understanding is that they're extremely desirable. They're a drop-in replacement for millions of hydrocarbon plants. They can scale up/down with demand. They produce enormous amounts of energy and emit no C02. Think of the materials and industrial waste to produce 1 nuclear power plant versus all of the battery, solar cells, and turbines to equal the same in po…

>They can scale up/down with demand. For something as capital intensive as a nuclear power plant, throttling their output makes them uneconomical. They have almost zero opex so you barely save a penny.

That's not the point of scaling up and down with energy generation. You need to match the demand. Generate too much and don't have demand? Not good.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#110

Post by pyreton »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

My climate change plan is simple: a ratcheting carbon fee with dividend[1], together with a carbon tariff as part of a climate club[2] The industries where it's easy will take the easy way to avoid the carbon fee. The industries where it's hard will pay the fee but will see the ratchet coming and will be furiously researching alternatives. Worse come to worse, at some point the fee will be more than sequestration cos…

Agreed on both points. If you want to help make Carbon Fee and Dividend a reality, check out citizensclimatelobby.org
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