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Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

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Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#151

Post by jessaustin »

ceejayoz wrote: post #11
jessaustin wrote: post #6

Missouri lawmakers responded by lowering, to 20 percent, a cap on the proportion of general operating revenues that could come from minor traffic violations. Previously the limit was 30% and before that it was 35%. That higher limit was imposed to deal with Macks Creek, MO, a village on a US highway in a valley between two steep hills. That village was coated in brake dust, until the legislature decided it doesn't re…

That was the town with one cop per 50 residents, wasn't it?

I'm not sure if they ever had four cops? They did have two patrol cars, though, so it could have made sense. They didn't want anyone to sneak through at 46 MPH.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#152

Post by olliej »

A degree of this could be solved just by saying proceeds from fines, fees, and forfeiture go to the state or federal government.

Obviously that might encourage those governments too do such fines, but a. they already do that, and b. people have historically been better at limiting large scale abuse like this that is possible in each separate small town scattered around the state/country.

Also it might provide a more cost effective way to sue in response to disparate enforcement (one suit vs many).

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#153

Post by aluren »

Fines should not exist. Anything that gets punished by a fine is basically codeword for 'you can break that law if you're rich'. The most spectacular example being Facebook's stock rising after being fined for a few billions because it was pocket money for them.

Alternatively, if you really want to punish minor things, fines could be dependent on your income.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#154

Post by flyGuyOnTheSly »

>Others prop up their budgets using traffic cameras, parking citations or code enforcement violations.

I saw my town make over $1,200 within a split second the other night.

I was stopped waiting at a red light, as cars were passing in front of me.

The light turned yellow, then red, then not even what seemed like a nanosecond after it might have turned red... 3 cars entered the intersection and the light flashed 3 times.

$400, $800, $1,200... all within less than a second, for an infraction so minor that even a police cruiser sitting in my exact same position would have probably sloughed off as being "close enough".

Not to mention, these cameras probably cost orders of magnitude less than a human police officer and a dedicated cruiser.

All I am getting at is, from a business standpoint, it's obvious why these are so popular with poor municipalities.

Once again, the rich get richer, and the poor get kicked on their way home from their 3rd job with a $400 fine for being a nanosecond later than an ambiguously timed light decided they should have been.

This is not going to change unless federal legislation forces it to.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#155

Post by ErotemeObelus »

btilly wrote: post #7

Punitive fines and fees are bad. Abuse of civil forfeiture is worse. But worse still are a minority of towns that not only are dependent on punitive fines, but that levy them in a racially biased way. See https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-f... for an explanation of how this helped ignite the racial tension that Ferguson had a few years ago.

Pressing charges on black people to extract revenue from them is stealing.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#156

Post by ryandrake »

SkyBelow wrote: post #61
donatj wrote: post #27

I've always thought society would be better off if fines and money confiscated by police was redistributed as tax relief rather than going to the government or police department doing the confiscation. As it stands it only encourages abuse.

No one involved in levying the fine (or deciding what is fined or how large a fine is) can benefit if you want to remove the conflict of interest. Perhaps the best thing to do is stick it all in a fund for helping victims of crimes when the criminal doesn't have enough funds to cover damages to the person (but even that isn't great).

Shred the money that gets collected. This helps everyone by increasing the value of the dollar by an extremely tiny amount.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#157

Post by SamReidHughes »

bksenior wrote: post #13
wil421 wrote: post #5

In Georgia you can see the path I-75 and I-16 take through the southern half of the state. 16 is notorious for speed traps and other shadier stuff. Including road blocks on exit ramps with drug dogs waiting to sniff cars. They bait people into getting off at the exits by leaving fake signs about upcoming road blocks. When College kids were moving or getting out of school they’d be out in full force. Sadly my Dad grew…

If you've driven between LA and SF you'll most likely be very aware of Kings County. A notorious speed trap that requires you to be on site to contest their questionable infractions.

I never knew that was a speed trap. How do they enforce it? It seemed really easy to see cop cars, as long as you slowed down for bridges.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#158

Post by SamReidHughes »

distances wrote: post #84
not_a_cop75 wrote: post #21

Hell, I'd say that any town that leverages against the economically poor to benefit the economically elite is bad, and just going by the way fines are handed out, that happens everywhere. Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. While doing this can add an extra incentive for the rich to be dishonest (which happens anyway), by not doing it you are essentially telling the rich that they…

I'm from a country with so-called day fines: a fine is a multiplier of your daily earnings. It boggles my mind that a similar system isn't in use everywhere. It's easy to understand and fair to everyone; a deterrent against infractions independent of your income.

For starters, there are constitutional barriers, one being the excessive fines clause.

And there are multiple jurisdictions. Imagine Arizona giving a California resident a $50000 speeding ticket. Or L.A. (city) levying income based parking tickets on Beverly Hills and Orange County residents (neighboring communities with ultra wealthy people).

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#159

Post by 8bitsrule »

Hah. The last traffic fine I paid was for a highway speed-limit sign (65 to 30mph) more than a mile from, and around a curve from, a Midwest whistle-stop that a few hundred called home. A lot of these flat-plain potholes probably survived only because their leaders had the connections to get the highway routed through them.

( Akroid's 1991 film 'Nothing But Trouble' sums up my feelings.)

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