Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#121

Post by mieseratte » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

frittig wrote: post #98

btilly wrote: post #7

Punitive fines and fees are bad. Abuse of civil forfeiture is worse. But worse still are a minority of towns that not only are dependent on punitive fines, but that levy them in a racially biased way. See https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-f... for an explanation of how this helped ignite the racial tension that Ferguson had a few years ago.

> and then arresting people when they don't pay [the fine]. So what should the government do if someone doesn't pay their fine?

Depending on the reason, anything from additional fines, commuting the sentence to community service, or perhaps jail.

There's a big difference between someone not paying a fine because their flat-out broke and not paying it because "fuck the system, I'm above the law."

Zero-Tolerance and One-Size-Fits-All policies are destructively stupid and result in bad outcomes. Context matters in a system of jurisprudence, but ignoring it makes the lives of those implementing and managing them easier though, which is probably the point.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#122

Post by mieseratte » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #118

mieseratte wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any specific examples of this? I've been taking I-16 pretty routinely for most of my life, never heard of or ran into anything resembling a speed trap let alone bait. Admittedly, I have some friends with a story about Georgia highway patrol / local PD setting up a roadblock off an interstate exit right by a Phish concert.

Yes I went to Georgia Southern briefly and had friends who graduated from there. A couple of our fraternity bothers got busted by the road block ahead trick. Maybe it was around Dublin. Metter was/is a speed trap but I’ve only been through once in the past 5 years. Here’s a list from the AJC[1]. I can vouch for Doraville being a trap. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ajc.com/news/local/traffic-...

Now that I think about it a bit more, I do recall Dublin being an alleged hotspot, but to me it's the same way I've heard Jacksonboro, SC is a hotspot. Transit it a half-dozen or so times per year but never manage to see or otherwise run into actual trouble. Everyone I know will tell you it's a hotspot, but never has actual accounts of it.

Metter was and remains the family pitstop, and has never been trouble and I can't recall seeing any in the 10+ years that I can remember driving. Of course that's really only in the I-16 interchange area as opposed to transiting the town itself, perhaps further into the depths of Metter awaits a townie with a quota.

I wonder if police hotspots are a sort-of hipster problem, by the time you hear of them they've since moved on to greener pastures.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#123

Post by xoa » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #121

frittig wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then arresting people when they don't pay [the fine]. So what should the government do if someone doesn't pay their fine?

Depending on the reason, anything from additional fines, commuting the sentence to community service, or perhaps jail. There's a big difference between someone not paying a fine because their flat-out broke and not paying it because "fuck the system, I'm above the law." Zero-Tolerance and One-Size-Fits-All policies are destructively stupid and result in bad outcomes. Context matters in a system of jurisprudence, but…

>or perhaps jail

No. There should never be jail for debt. We have a lot of history seeing what debtors prison looks like and it's ugly, and also stupid because it's the government paying out a lot of money... to collect a bit of money? Usually paying out far more then the fine is anyway. Plus opportunity cost. Plus any value lost to society from whatever that person might have done outside of prison. Plus any extra cost that comes from them getting turned far worse while in prison. If someone has zero money, and will never in the future have any money, then sure blood can't be squeezed from stone and it's still better to write it off (or change the statute to require different recompense like service if it's deemed that important) than jail them. If they do have any money/property, or ever will collect any money/property down the road, that can be taken in due course.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#124

Post by julianwachholz » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

madhadron wrote: post #35

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #21

Hell, I'd say that any town that leverages against the economically poor to benefit the economically elite is bad, and just going by the way fines are handed out, that happens everywhere. Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. While doing this can add an extra incentive for the rich to be dishonest (which happens anyway), by not doing it you are essentially telling the rich that they…

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

At 60mph ~= 100km/h in city limits (50km/h) it is not a simple fine anymore but a criminal charge. Fines are fixed no matter how much you make. (e.g. 1-5km/h above limit is CHF 40.00)

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#125

Post by knightofmars » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #107

appleiigs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discriminating against race, age, gender is bad. You need to treat people fairly. However, when it comes to rich people you think it's OK?

If fines are intended to be punitive, and intended to discourage people from committing crimes, then a person's wealth is the only thing it makes sense to base them on. Otherwise, wealthy people can flout fine-based laws with virtual impunity, while poor can't. That doesn't seem fair, that seems like justice for the poor, lawlessness for the rich.

"If fines are intended to be punitive..."

Exactly! The _intent_ of the action is one of the most important aspects. If a group is disproportionately being penalized (the poor in this case) then the action (the fine) isn't actually fulfilling its intent (to prevent all who receive the fine from breaking the law).

This is why "points" where introduced in numerous states to create a demerit point system. Even if a driver can afford 1,000 speeding tickets in a year they will lose their license after receiving a specific amount of demerit points.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_system_(driving)

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#126

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #122

wil421 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I went to Georgia Southern briefly and had friends who graduated from there. A couple of our fraternity bothers got busted by the road block ahead trick. Maybe it was around Dublin. Metter was/is a speed trap but I’ve only been through once in the past 5 years. Here’s a list from the AJC[1]. I can vouch for Doraville being a trap. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ajc.com/news/local/traffic-...

Now that I think about it a bit more, I do recall Dublin being an alleged hotspot, but to me it's the same way I've heard Jacksonboro, SC is a hotspot. Transit it a half-dozen or so times per year but never manage to see or otherwise run into actual trouble. Everyone I know will tell you it's a hotspot, but never has actual accounts of it. Metter was and remains the family pitstop, and has never been trouble and I ca…

[deleted]

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#127

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

appleiigs wrote: post #91

throwaway5752 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. Handing a $100 fine to person X and person Y is ridiculous when person X makes minimal wage and person Y is a C level executive making $400K. Normalizing the fine to the median income and proportionate changing it by income level is equitable and fair. You can look for legal precedence in bail hearings, where wealth and flight risk are definitely and correctly taken into account.

Discriminating against race, age, gender is bad. You need to treat people fairly. However, when it comes to rich people you think it's OK?

[deleted]

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#128

Post by russnewcomer » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #94

throwaway5752 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. Handing a $100 fine to person X and person Y is ridiculous when person X makes minimal wage and person Y is a C level executive making $400K. Normalizing the fine to the median income and proportionate changing it by income level is equitable and fair. You can look for legal precedence in bail hearings, where wealth and flight risk are definitely and correctly taken into account.

Bail hearings you get the money back when you show up. Bail is about not being stored in jail while you await your trial -- you are innocent at that point. They want to make sure you don't run away, and in fact many are beginning to push for lower bail requirements.

In theory you get the money back. In practice, you have to borrow the money from a bail bondsman who has the cash on hand to post bail, and then pay him a percentage for his services.

There are also jurisdictions which charge filing and handling fees on bail, which you never get back, which can be up to 10%. For 10k bond, which is pretty normal many places, that means 1000, just gone, not even accounting for the bond.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#129

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #106

appleiigs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discriminating against race, age, gender is bad. You need to treat people fairly. However, when it comes to rich people you think it's OK?

We already do it with progressive taxes. Fines are just a type of tax, so why can't they be progressive too?

[deleted]

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#130

Post by cmiles74 » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

appleiigs wrote: post #91

throwaway5752 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. Handing a $100 fine to person X and person Y is ridiculous when person X makes minimal wage and person Y is a C level executive making $400K. Normalizing the fine to the median income and proportionate changing it by income level is equitable and fair. You can look for legal precedence in bail hearings, where wealth and flight risk are definitely and correctly taken into account.

Discriminating against race, age, gender is bad. You need to treat people fairly. However, when it comes to rich people you think it's OK?

Isn't the fine supposed to be punitive and discourage further infractions? If that is the case, the fine will have to scale with the perpetrators income in order to retain bite.