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Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

governing.com

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Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#41

Post by floatrock »

donatj wrote: post #27

I've always thought society would be better off if fines and money confiscated by police was redistributed as tax relief rather than going to the government or police department doing the confiscation. As it stands it only encourages abuse.

Budget shortfalls from various forms of "tax relief" (exemptions, no income tax, etc.) is one of the main factors the article suggests leads municipalities to collect operating income using these alternative fees and fines.

It is expensive to operate a bureaucracy or a public school district.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#42

Post by siavosh »

shados wrote: post #34

I always felt like punitive fines and fees, tickets, etc, should be de facto given out to a third party, unaffiliated charity. Got a ticket for not picking up after your dog? Money goes to an animal protection group. Of course, even WITH the economic incentive a lot of these things get little to no attention/enforcement, so without it will be even less. Sigh. At least ridiculously random road rules would go away?

3rd party contributions may then incentivize the formation of special interest charity lobbies pushing for more fines unfortunately.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#43

Post by aswanson »

donatj wrote: post #27

I've always thought society would be better off if fines and money confiscated by police was redistributed as tax relief rather than going to the government or police department doing the confiscation. As it stands it only encourages abuse.

That only incentivizes the sheriff to order his police to shake down more to passers-through to get reelected by touting how much he reduces the tax load.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#44

Post by dsfyu404ed »

duxup wrote: post #19
motohagiography wrote: post #10

If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dying out, it's probably best to let them turn into ghost towns because they have succumbed to corruption as a way of life.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

These towns don't provide many services to the residents (this is covered in TFA). They're basically just paying their own salaries with the money.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#45

Post by duxup »

LanceH wrote: post #37
duxup wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

The first thing revenue collection funds is revenue collection. Then possibly more revenue collection. Asset forfeiture efforts dry up substantially when the money is returned to the general fund instead of the capturing agencies. Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people.

"Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people."

Arguably that idea is what lead to the current situation in some cases....

As the article notes state legislatures cut local government funding, they limit how they can gather funds, probabbly under the idea that they're returning revenue to the people ... so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it. And here we are.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#46

Post by wil421 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #32
wil421 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police lacked funding and the population of the towns were falling. If they raised taxes the very limited business could leave. The state did do something to prevent speed traps[1], not sure if it worked or passed. Sheriff is a political job and even more so in small towns. It’s just as much of a mayor type job as it is a policing one. Their entire school system had less students than my high school in metro Atla…

I doubt the town would die without the fines. They're surely the most convenient way to collect money thought.

I should rephrase it as “the town was dying and needed money” rather than it would die without the money.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#48

Post by DanBC »

btilly wrote: post #7

Punitive fines and fees are bad. Abuse of civil forfeiture is worse. But worse still are a minority of towns that not only are dependent on punitive fines, but that levy them in a racially biased way. See https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-f... for an explanation of how this helped ignite the racial tension that Ferguson had a few years ago.

Here's a short BBC radio programme about St Louis County, and it covers the same sort of thing. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm

> This edition of Crossing Continents goes out and about in St Louis County to meet the people who say they are victims of a system which sees arrest warrants issued for relatively minor misdemeanours. Many of the victims are poor and black. The programme also takes us into the courts, and out onto the freeways with some of the County's police, who say they are upholding the law and promoting road safety.

> The US government is not so sure. One of the towns in question is Ferguson where riots erupted after a white police officer shot a young black man dead last summer. In a recent report on the riots, the Department of Justice concluded that the Ferguson police had been stopping people for no good reason. It said they were putting revenue before public safety.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#49

Post by lunias »

wil421 wrote: post #5

In Georgia you can see the path I-75 and I-16 take through the southern half of the state. 16 is notorious for speed traps and other shadier stuff. Including road blocks on exit ramps with drug dogs waiting to sniff cars. They bait people into getting off at the exits by leaving fake signs about upcoming road blocks. When College kids were moving or getting out of school they’d be out in full force. Sadly my Dad grew…

"keep parts of the town alive"

Which parts? The police force?

Seems to me that if your city doesn't bring in enough tax revenue to support a police force then you'd opt to have a volunteer police force.

What's the situation with fire departments in these towns?

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#50

Post by porpoisemonkey »

AWildC182 wrote: post #22

This is especially annoying because for every dollar they collect, you can end up paying your insurance company 4+ times as much because they now think you're a terrible driver for getting these minor BS citations.

If you get caught for speeding in Michigan, the Golden rule is to always appeal the ticket. Unless you've been excessively reckless they'll typically knock it down to "impeding traffic" which carries a slightly higher fine (depending on your speed) but is not a moving violation and doesn't get reported to insurance. [1]

> Impeding traffic is a civil infraction punishable by a fine. It is also considered a non-moving violation that does not add any points to the offender's Michigan driving record. Non-moving violations are not reported to the Michigan Secretary of State and are less likely to be detected by automobile insurance companies as a basis to raise rates. Municipal attorneys will frequently offer to reduce speeding tickets to an impeding traffic charge which avoids points on the driver's record but usually results in a bigger fine.

It's a pure money making scheme.

[1] https://www.monroecountylawyers.com/blog/2018/12/what-is-imp...

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