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Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

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Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#31

Post by deadmetheny »

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #20
deadmetheny wrote: post #15

There's lots of towns very well-known for being speed traps in my part of the Midwest. My hometown in particular has a police force of approximately 8 full-time officers for a population of 5,000. There's absolutely no good reason to have so many cops for a population of that size, especially when the crime statistics are very low for non-traffic infractions. The only traffic ticket I've gotten in 30+ years was at 12…

The U.S. has 284 police officers per 100,000 people.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... ) That would translate to ~14 police officers for a town of your size.

Ok, sure, but that's not really a useful metric for a low population density area. Crime in my area is very low, violent crime especially, there's simply no need for that many police - they'd be doing nothing most of the time, if not for running speed traps and harassing bored teenagers.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#32

Post by BurningFrog »

wil421 wrote: post #18
BubRoss wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were the fines the only way to keep parts of the town alive?

The police lacked funding and the population of the towns were falling. If they raised taxes the very limited business could leave. The state did do something to prevent speed traps[1], not sure if it worked or passed. Sheriff is a political job and even more so in small towns. It’s just as much of a mayor type job as it is a policing one. Their entire school system had less students than my high school in metro Atla…

I doubt the town would die without the fines. They're surely the most convenient way to collect money thought.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#33

Post by duxup »

"Actions taken by the legislature in Louisiana and in other states have likely compounded the issue. According to Census survey data, in states with the most fine-reliant jurisdictions, localities incurred notably steeper state funding cuts than elsewhere nationally over the decade. Many of those same states have also enacted numerous revenue restrictions for cities over the years. In fact, according to research from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, in states that implemented caps or limits on local property taxes starting in the late 1970s, fees and charges substantially increased as a share of all revenues that local governments raised."

I think this speaks to the larger issue, a structural problem about how revenues are gathered.

State legislators restrict or eliminate funding and cut off any other sources of funding, so they gather funds the only way they can providing a perverse incentive.

There's way too much focus on "cut taxes wherever" without much thought as to good governance and the results of such cuts.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#34

Post by shados »

I always felt like punitive fines and fees, tickets, etc, should be de facto given out to a third party, unaffiliated charity. Got a ticket for not picking up after your dog? Money goes to an animal protection group.

Of course, even WITH the economic incentive a lot of these things get little to no attention/enforcement, so without it will be even less. Sigh. At least ridiculously random road rules would go away?

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#35

Post by madhadron »

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #21

Hell, I'd say that any town that leverages against the economically poor to benefit the economically elite is bad, and just going by the way fines are handed out, that happens everywhere. Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. While doing this can add an extra incentive for the rich to be dishonest (which happens anyway), by not doing it you are essentially telling the rich that they…

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make.

Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#37

Post by LanceH »

duxup wrote: post #19
motohagiography wrote: post #10

If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dying out, it's probably best to let them turn into ghost towns because they have succumbed to corruption as a way of life.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

The first thing revenue collection funds is revenue collection. Then possibly more revenue collection. Asset forfeiture efforts dry up substantially when the money is returned to the general fund instead of the capturing agencies. Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#38

Post by Ensorceled »

deadmetheny wrote: post #15

There's lots of towns very well-known for being speed traps in my part of the Midwest. My hometown in particular has a police force of approximately 8 full-time officers for a population of 5,000. There's absolutely no good reason to have so many cops for a population of that size, especially when the crime statistics are very low for non-traffic infractions. The only traffic ticket I've gotten in 30+ years was at 12…

8 officers is barely enough for 24-hour police coverage, so that's a good reason.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#40

Post by adrr »

donatj wrote: post #27

I've always thought society would be better off if fines and money confiscated by police was redistributed as tax relief rather than going to the government or police department doing the confiscation. As it stands it only encourages abuse.

I like the idea of going towards the states general road fund. Fines are used to improve the roads.
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