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The Provocations of Camille Paglia

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41–50 of 171 posts

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#41

I recommend reading fools fraud and firebands on the matter by Roger Scruton as long as Taleb on the dictatorship of the minority https://link.medium.com/P6JRZtgtuZ I’m deeply worried about the evolution of the universities it looks more and more like a cult is taking over instead of science debate and rationalism over emotions...

What, this Roger Scruton, tobacco industry shill? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122192/ I'm not sure he's in a position to lecture anyone on science, let alone fraud.

Or this Roger Scruton?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/apr/10/roger-scruto...

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#42

Camille Paglia is over-rated IMO. I've read a couple of her books and there is little of substance there under the gnomic bombast and pseudo-academic jargon. An example from the start of her most famous book: In the beginning was nature. The background from which and against which our ideas of god were formed, nature remains the supreme moral problem. We cannot hope to understand sex and gender until we clarify our a…

>What does this really mean? Does it mean anything?

Yes, a lot of things. And it's pretty trivial in its meaning really (also in its expression). In other words, it's not like some academic obscurantism. She clearly says something clear itself.

At first I thought your disagreement stemmed from unfamiliarity with European philosophy, and wanting everything to be spelt out in the dry style of anglosaxon philosophy.

But since you're OK with Lacan, Foucault, and Derrida, I can't possibly fathom where your disagreement with the above is.

If you can read Lacan, Foucault, and Derrida, you can surely parse Paglia (at least the above except). As for the vitriol she expresses against them, well they too have expressed vitriol against each other, at some point or another. It's par for the course, as these philosophers don't pretend to express some kind of scientific understanding (which converges), but ways to look at the world (which can diverge).

As for what she says, I'll try putting it more crudely below:

1) "In the beginning was nature".

Civilization and humans start from being parts of nature (e.g. we start as regular animals).

2) "The background from which and against which our ideas of god were formed, nature remains the supreme moral problem".

Our religion (and other ideas, philosophy, morals, etc) evolve from our initial animal status and in connection to nature (e.g. consider how early gods where embodiments of natural forces, but also how natural constraints, from death to drought, to emotions, to reproductive urges, etc where things we responded with religion, song, myth, etc.

What's "natural" to us (and conversely, unnatural/obscene/etc) is our most common moral question.

3) "We cannot hope to understand sex and gender until we clarify our attitude toward nature. Sex is a subset to nature. Sex is the natural in man".

Sex and gender are tied to our natural (animal) origins (male/female organs, reproductive instinct, different physiology, etc). Sex is natural to us -- but it's still a complex issue (e.g. morally, legally, culturally). To feel comfortable and open towards sex, we should finally feel comfortable with our animal nature.

Finally, she asserts that since sex is part of nature, it is the natural part in us (e.g. not our artifice or construction, but something we inherited from our animal nature, and which connects us to it).

You could easily find similar excerpts in all three of Lacan, Foucault, and Derrida.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#43
post #24

But that's assuming the conclusion! The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny, especially in social interaction. The roles we play and the relationships we have with each other aren't a mere clockwork expression of our chromosomes. They are far more memetic instead. You can't point to a spot on the Y chromosome that is responsible for unequal pay. Edit: I know it's frowned on to compla…

>The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny, especially in social interaction.

No, that's a modern fashionable idea IN gender studies.

Doesn't mean all gender studies should (or does) bow to this idea. And even when they do, it's far more nuanced than that, as there's an interplay between biology and social elements. (Paglia doesn't say biology is destiny itself -- but parts of biology ARE destiny -- for example, death is).

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#44
post #34

Camille Paglia is over-rated IMO. I've read a couple of her books and there is little of substance there under the gnomic bombast and pseudo-academic jargon. An example from the start of her most famous book: In the beginning was nature. The background from which and against which our ideas of god were formed, nature remains the supreme moral problem. We cannot hope to understand sex and gender until we clarify our a…

> What does this really mean? Does it mean anything? She means that human consciousness is born from our actions towards nature since before we were conscious and that we cannot detach morality from that. Furthermore, we can't hope to define sex and gender, before understanding the roots of morality since they are defined by our primeval nature, not by society rules born out of conscious thought.

Morality is a human construct. Nature has no morality, only survival matters - by any means. That's why such cruelty (from human moral viewpoint) is found in Nature.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#45
post #5

“These minor French theorists have had a disastrous effect on American education. Lacan encourages pompous bombast and Foucault teaches cheap cynicism, while Derrida’s aggressive method, called deconstruction, systematically trashes high culture by reducing everything to language and then making language destroy itself.” She's right, but it really upsets many academics for someone to say that. Good.

While no idea is impervious to criticism, I think Americans take those authors much more "serious" (as in their ideas as "hard truths") than them themselves take it (in France).

So her criticism might be right in substance (in the American context) but targeting the wrong thing.

Derrida is pretty much Gödel's incompleteness theorem for philosophers instead of just "reducing everything to language and then making language destroy itself"

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#46
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think her analysis is wrong in that regard. American puritanism is more to blame. French universities do not suffer from the current campus hysteria.

I think having free education (e.g. in some EU) makes students appreciate their education. Education is a privilege and something to be earned for many. The universities have more power over the student life as they know best. Having students pay for everything (e.g in US) makes their education into a product and they are the consumer. Students can then demand to have certain conditions met. The consumer knows best,…

I had not seen this interpretation of the perceived value of education before and find it intriguing (and tentatively agree). I am surprised there aren’t more dissenting comments because it flies in the face of the free-market libertarian interpretation of value, which would argue that people do not value things that are free.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#47
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes you can: men have testosterone, so they're more aggressive, which turns out to translate to asking for more pay raises more often and changing jobs more quickly if unhappy with their pay. Hey presto, a biological basis for unequal pay. Now obviously this doesn't explain everything about unequal pay -- but it would be foolish to ignore entirely, no?

Nurture can trump nature, though: There are matrilineal societies where competitiveness is considered a feminine trait. As is often the case, it's not simply either/or.

>There are matrilineal societies where competitiveness is considered a feminine trait.

Are we talking about outliers or are we talking about the vast global and historical populations. These kinds of examples usually point to some small tribe in Africa, or some matrilineal or matriarchal property in some civilization (e.g. Spartan inheritance laws) as a counter-example, but miss that you still need to explain why the vast majority of civilizations and societies independently ascribed the same properties to men and women.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#48
post #24

But that's assuming the conclusion! The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny, especially in social interaction. The roles we play and the relationships we have with each other aren't a mere clockwork expression of our chromosomes. They are far more memetic instead. You can't point to a spot on the Y chromosome that is responsible for unequal pay. Edit: I know it's frowned on to compla…

>The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny That's the whole point? Because I think this is the sentiment of pretty much every rational person, and heck, every non-rational person. Nobody argues biology is destiny. Even the most stringent materialists won't argue that physics or chemistry or biology is the best way to understand interactions between people. This is why biologists don't…

> No. But we can do in depth economic analysis. And in fact, we can explain unequal pay quite well, and it has very little to do with discrimination.

Because I'm really interested in this and have been unable to find something convincing, could you point me towards any such studies?

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#49
post #24

But that's assuming the conclusion! The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny, especially in social interaction. The roles we play and the relationships we have with each other aren't a mere clockwork expression of our chromosomes. They are far more memetic instead. You can't point to a spot on the Y chromosome that is responsible for unequal pay. Edit: I know it's frowned on to compla…

If gender studies had a consistent purpose, we would understand gender better after decades of it, not worse.

Men and women are at each other's throats, because gender studies started by giving bitchy women undeserved status and influence to keep them occupied and happy, and then letting them inflate that hand out as if they ever actually earned it.

They have no answer to the Norwegian Gender Paradox other than to double down and blame men and patriarchy extra double hard. Women like Paglia were bullied out by the mean girls on day 1.

But patriarchy is just the word for the decisions women make collectively, and then refuse to take responsibility for. Accountability is still optional for women in 2019, a truth they do not want to admit.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#50
post #43
post #24

But that's assuming the conclusion! The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny, especially in social interaction. The roles we play and the relationships we have with each other aren't a mere clockwork expression of our chromosomes. They are far more memetic instead. You can't point to a spot on the Y chromosome that is responsible for unequal pay. Edit: I know it's frowned on to compla…

> The whole point of gender studies is the idea that biology is not destiny, especially in social interaction. No, that's a modern fashionable idea IN gender studies. Doesn't mean all gender studies should (or does) bow to this idea. And even when they do, it's far more nuanced than that, as there's an interplay between biology and social elements. (Paglia doesn't say biology is destiny itself -- but parts of biology…

> parts of biology ARE destiny -- for example, death is

Substantial parts of HN think this is something that could be rectified technologically. And there are a few species that are "biologically immortal"; lobsters don't have telomere aging, for example.

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