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Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

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Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#91

Post by gremlinsinc »

zipwitch wrote: post #43
rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

>If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life? If there is no afterlife, no elsewhere, then the takeaway is not that nothing matters, or that life has no point. Rather, it is the opposite: what we do in the here and now is the only thing that will ever matter.

This! This is my philosophy, I picked it up from some stoic readings and teachings. Either you can be depressed and hate life and wallow in depression or take the easy way out or you can stop and find beauty in the 80-100 years we're given while on this rock. I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys -- I'm afraid of missing out on their lives.

Missing just one major milestone scares me, but I know I could die anytime and miss their graduation, or wedding, or grandkids -- it makes me appreciate everything more.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#92

Post by ulisesrmzroche »

pacala wrote: post #34
rco8786 wrote: post #14

33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way…

Patriotism is not believing your county is best. Patriotism is believing it's worthwhile to strive to make your country better.

Patriotism is whatever anyone wants it to be to prove whatever point seems pertinent at the time

But what’s clear is that it’s about trying to get you to sacrifice yourself for the benefit of whatever group is seeking to attain power

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#93

Post by pacala »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #75
pacala wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patriotism is not believing your county is best. Patriotism is believing it's worthwhile to strive to make your country better.

This is really well put, so much so that I searched to see if it was actually a quote. Didn't find it, but did find an interesting one from Bernard Shaw [0]: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it." I am not well read on him so don't know the context or his intention, but after a quick scan of his wikipedia page I saw that he admired Hitler and Stalin, p…

Go for it!

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#94

Post by patientplatypus »

Baeocystin wrote: post #51
patientplatypus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m on the younger side of the millennial group. Freedom and democracy are wonderful in theory but the US has been run by plutocrats since it’s inception. It was literally built on slavery and black people have, today, 10% of the wealth of white people. And you can do anything you want in this wonderful society, so long as you can afford it. And that’s only one group getting screwed over - for 50 years the median pur…

I'm someone who spent their childhood in a newly Communist state. We got to watch anyone with an education have everything they had stolen, then rewarded with either a bullet to the head or strict fealty to the party line. Oddly enough, the new commissars seemed quite comfortable in the homes of those they killed. America, warts and all, has a superior system. That doesn't mean there aren't real problems here. It jus…

We will experience it soon unfortunately.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#95

Post by barongrounds »

devoply wrote: post #57
i_am_nomad wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can love your country without considering it to be perfect. In fact, the best kind of patriotism is the “if wrong, then make right” type. That being said, I do believe there are some special aspects to American culture which we should be proud of, and which attract immigrants from around the world.

Less corruption and more job opportunity / money I think sums it up for most people. Maybe rights and freedoms being a peripheral concern but for most people their countries of origins are free enough in that they know how to act not to get into trouble. Outside of that I don't think America has much of a culture.

More job opportunities for the highly educated, absolutely. But I think you'd be suprised at just how corrupt and oligarchic the US is perceived internationally. No other western first world country comes close.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#96

Post by rubicon33 »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #91
zipwitch wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life? If there is no afterlife, no elsewhere, then the takeaway is not that nothing matters, or that life has no point. Rather, it is the opposite: what we do in the here and now is the only thing that will ever matter.

This! This is my philosophy, I picked it up from some stoic readings and teachings. Either you can be depressed and hate life and wallow in depression or take the easy way out or you can stop and find beauty in the 80-100 years we're given while on this rock. I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys -- I'm afraid of missing out on their lives. Missing just one major…

> I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys

This is what I don't understand. You were depressed, recognized life as meaningless and without persistence, and yet you felt like it was a good idea to bring someone else into this world?

I'll truly never understand the rational of people who are able to convince themselves of what they want to hear. I gather that you weren't all that depressed to begin with, and your view of the world not very bleak at all, if you felt like bringing other lives into it was a good idea.

That, or selfishness is something you're not averse to.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#97

Post by rubicon33 »

tomohawk wrote: post #85
rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

Does anyone believe in an all powerful being in the sky? That's such a superficial strawman that it just sounds like an excuse to not investigate. Given that you appear to feel strongly about this, you owe it to yourself to look into this more deeply.

Well, I'm certainly open to being convinced otherwise. And I have made efforts to understand the world. Existential thinking is not foreign to me, in the slightest. That's lead me to - among others - books like "Why does the world exist" by Jim Holt.

Ultimately, despite everything I've read and watched, including an upbringing in the Christian church... I can only draw the conclusion that we just don't know. We have no idea if there's a super being, but there's decent reason to BELIEVE that there isn't. Belief ironically, IS what it boils down to. I just don't believe in 2019, that the likelihood is an all present God.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#98

Post by rubicon33 »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #48
rubicon33 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

My kids are me. When I see them walking like me, taking like me and arguing with me like I did with y parents... That's my afterlife.

Yea............ With respect, we are truly two completely different people. I'll just never understand the narcissism behind procreating to extend ones own life / legacy. I totally understand btw that it's you who is normal, and me that has the strange perspective on this.

My hypothetical kids, that I could have, are certainly not "me".

They'd be actual real people. People who suffer, and hurt, and struggle. People who have a not insignificant chance of ruminating in the same way I do, about the state of the universe, but still aren't me.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#99

Post by tomohawk »

rubicon33 wrote: post #97
tomohawk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone believe in an all powerful being in the sky? That's such a superficial strawman that it just sounds like an excuse to not investigate. Given that you appear to feel strongly about this, you owe it to yourself to look into this more deeply.

Well, I'm certainly open to being convinced otherwise. And I have made efforts to understand the world. Existential thinking is not foreign to me, in the slightest. That's lead me to - among others - books like "Why does the world exist" by Jim Holt. Ultimately, despite everything I've read and watched, including an upbringing in the Christian church... I can only draw the conclusion that we just don't know. We have…

The world is a hard place, and belief that offers hope and something worth putting your faith in is hard to come by. If you have not found a belief that offers hope, then keep looking.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#100

Post by malvosenior »

derefr wrote: post #88
malvosenior wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super-predators is the most obvious and famous example that comes to mind (one you're quick to dismiss), but do you really think there isn't racism on the left? Many would say that the objectification, tokenization and gamification the left does with minorities is racist. In fact, as non-white minority that's exactly how I feel. > This directly contradicts the mandate laid out in the Constitution which clearly states…

> Many would say that the objectification, tokenization and gamification the left does with minorities is racist. Insofar as bigotry is proposed as a cause for something—a way you're suggesting a person or group thinks about the world, that leads them to the actions they choose—then I would suggest that such modelling only works to the degree that said behavior doesn't have a clear game-theoretic justification. Or, l…

You're discounting people's perception of others and themselves. Nobody wants to be "the token". It starts creating the perception that all people of that demographic exist in the workplace due to lowered barriers and thus are not as good. It's not entirely beneficial.
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