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Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

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Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#51

Post by scarmig »

btrettel wrote: post #30
netinstructions wrote: post #3

I wonder how many people are upset that the vehicles had to drop them off in a valid passenger load/unload zone as opposed to the usual Lyft / Uber tactic of parking in a no parking / no stopping zone, bike lane, crosswalk, etc because it's most convenient for the drivers and passengers (at the safety and expense of everyone else sharing the space)... That quote at the end: > I guess Lyft has me spoiled. I like getti…

Cyclist here. In my experience, the majority of the time a driver stops or parks in the bike lane in an urban area in the US (e.g., I live in Austin), there's a legal parking/stopping spot within a reasonable walking distance, often within 50 to 100 feet. (If this isn't true where you live, consider the difference in the location. There are probably exceptions too. I'm told that legal parking isn't typically close in…

In the right light, this is a competitive advantage for Waymo. Prove that it's possible to have a ride hailing app that strictly follows municipal stopping/parking rules, and then encourage cities to start strictly enforcing those rules and ticketing offenders. Self-driving cars would presumably be better than humans at following those rules (at least, if we're imagining a world where self-driving cars work safely and consistently).

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#52

Post by kahnjw »

ForrestN wrote: post #43
kahnjw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about UPS/FedEx? They certainly test new products on public roads and have no requirement to make public the resulting data.

As you can read above, I'm not arguing for the mandatory disclosure of data.

As you can read above, I wasn't implying you were. Merely pointing out another, perhaps better, analogy.

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#53

Post by javagram »

CloudYeller wrote: post #22

When are they going to just seal off an area so it's self-driving vehicles only, and test them there? In a 100% self driving environment, edge cases are probably much easier to reason about. And if the future is 100% self driving, they should probably get some training data from that environment anyway.

With bicycles and pedestrians sharing the common roads, a 100% self driving environment anywhere but the freeway is never going to happen though. They need to be able to handle the chaos.

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#54

Post by Animats »

That's useful info. I wonder where they had trouble with erratic steering. One Cruise video shows that where driving is alongside parked cars on a narrow street and the parking is irregular. The self driving vehicle is trying to stay in its half of the street unless absolutely necessary.

Waymo still has to use "safety drivers". So far, nobody seems to have full self driving without "safety drivers". Which makes it useless. That's the big milestone to look for. When Waymo can get rid of the safety drivers, which they tried briefly last year, they're getting close to something useable.

Some products take a long time to bring to market. Xerography - first copy made in 1939, commercial success 1959. Although we're now 15 years after the DARPA Grand Challenge, so we're coming close to that 20 year wait.

Television - first broadcast, 1928, commercial success, around 1948. So 20 years agaon.

Roller bearings - Timken founded 1898, Timken bearings in 80% of US cars by the 1920s. 20 years again. (Although it took a really long time for them to convert railroads. First locomotive with roller bearings, 1923. In 1949, they were struggling to get railroads to put roller bearings on freight cars.[1] In 1991, roller bearings became mandatory for US inter-line interchange of freight cars.) Air brakes and automatic couplers only took 7 years, but that's because the U.S. Congress made railroads convert and standardize between 1893 and 1900.

What took a really long time, in post-1900 technology? (Before 1900, manufacturing infrastructure wasn't really ready for fast deployment.)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-1EZ6K7bpQ

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#55

Post by josephagoss »

moomin wrote: post #26

This might just be me, but it strikes me that the biggest problem self-driving cars has is that no-one actually needs them. Don’t get me wrong, you try to sell me a car that has the (fully capable) feature I’d definitely want it. But need it? Well, you’re not going to solve the problem of too many cars and the slow traffic that results with cars. It’d be hard to get special treatment for cars with a premium feature.…

Disabled people need them, very old people need them. Drunk people need them.

Lots of people could do with a driverless car.

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#56

Post by Arbalest »

scarmig wrote: post #51
btrettel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclist here. In my experience, the majority of the time a driver stops or parks in the bike lane in an urban area in the US (e.g., I live in Austin), there's a legal parking/stopping spot within a reasonable walking distance, often within 50 to 100 feet. (If this isn't true where you live, consider the difference in the location. There are probably exceptions too. I'm told that legal parking isn't typically close in…

In the right light, this is a competitive advantage for Waymo. Prove that it's possible to have a ride hailing app that strictly follows municipal stopping/parking rules, and then encourage cities to start strictly enforcing those rules and ticketing offenders. Self-driving cars would presumably be better than humans at following those rules (at least, if we're imagining a world where self-driving cars work safely an…

A somewhat ironic form of regular regulatory capture, in that it should have already been captive...

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#57

Post by paxys »

moomin wrote: post #26

This might just be me, but it strikes me that the biggest problem self-driving cars has is that no-one actually needs them. Don’t get me wrong, you try to sell me a car that has the (fully capable) feature I’d definitely want it. But need it? Well, you’re not going to solve the problem of too many cars and the slow traffic that results with cars. It’d be hard to get special treatment for cars with a premium feature.…

I personally think there are very few things we need today more than self driving cars. Driving is one of the most dangerous things we willingly do in our daily lives. There is an insane amount of valuable space in cities devoted to roads and parking, which is all used inefficiently. Valuable time is wasted in commutes and traffic.

Now imagine if every driver on the road followed all rules. Traffic flowed smoothly and there were fewer accidents. Your car dropped you in the middle of the city and drove out of sight till it was needed again. No one ever drove drunk or impaired. You could catch up on work or just watch something during your daily commute.

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#58

Post by ocdtrekkie »

damq wrote: post #6

> The data provide the most detailed view yet of the passenger experience inside vehicles from Waymo, which doesn’t disclose the information even though it uses public roads as its testing grounds. What's up with this statement? Should I be forced to publicize my phone calls just because I made them while driving on public roads? It's utterly bizarre that the author thinks he is entitled to see Waymo's data.

I think the important point here is that Waymo is testing a dangerous technology on public roads. Putting the public at risk for their corporate benefit. If I'm a test obstacle to see if your car stops in time to avoid hitting me, I should probably get something out of the deal.

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#59

Post by ocdtrekkie »

ttul wrote: post #4

The slow progress is not an indictment of self driving. This is one of the toughest engineering challenges ever mounted by humanity.

My peeve is not the slow progress: My peeve with self-driving companies, Waymo and Tesla alike, is their constant misrepresentation of their capabilities and their timelines for the benefit of stock value and public opinion. The technology doesn't really work, and Google's marketing for the past five years has claimed regulations were the only thing holding them back.

Re: Waymo’s Backseat Drivers: Confidential Data Reveals Self-Driving Taxi Hurdles

#60

Post by whatshisface »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #59
ttul wrote: post #4

The slow progress is not an indictment of self driving. This is one of the toughest engineering challenges ever mounted by humanity.

My peeve is not the slow progress: My peeve with self-driving companies, Waymo and Tesla alike, is their constant misrepresentation of their capabilities and their timelines for the benefit of stock value and public opinion. The technology doesn't really work, and Google's marketing for the past five years has claimed regulations were the only thing holding them back.

Is the market really being fooled? Tesla's stock price falls pretty often, and in a universe where the hype was real it would be a lot higher.
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