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Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

wsj.com

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Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#61

Post by Miner49er »

asdf21 wrote: post #24
Miner49er wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the case here. I think it means the younger generations are not patriotic - not simply that they don't support the current administration. As a young American, I would rate my patriotism as 0, because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy.

>because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy. What makes you think that, exactly?

Well, let me give some examples.

Citizenship is used to deny people without it participation in Democracy and deny them certain freedoms, for example.

Borders deny freedom of movement and are currently being used to lock people up (deny them virtually all freedom) for crossing an imaginary line.

Nations create and enforce inequality is basically what it comes down to. They are created and enforced through violence.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#62

Post by save_ferris »

lixtra wrote: post #33
save_ferris wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but feel that the current government is not upholding those ideals in a way they approve of. In some cases, the government is actively undermining those ideals. We’re separating thousands of young children from their parents and holding them in horrible conditions in some cases. My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing…

> My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. > Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to. When do you think it was better in the past?

I'm not arguing that there is a better period in the past than what we're experiencing now. But American history relative to the present has no bearing on the severity of the atrocities we're seeing now, no?

Are you suggesting that what I've outlined above is somehow acceptable because America has always had black marks in the history books?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#63

Post by malvosenior »

rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

If there is no afterlife, then the only way to carry your ideas and genes into the future is to have children. It seems like the destruction of religion would get more people interested in having children as it's the only "higher" function that exists for mortal beings.

Regardless of today's trends, in 100 years the only people who will exist will be those who's parents had children.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#64

Post by salty_biscuits »

rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

Why form bonds, and relationships, and become close with people...

To have something like the full gamut of experiences in your short time on earth. It is hard to describe, but as a lifelong atheist I still think of the birth of my children as something like a transcendental experience. So intense and so many emotions. I do understand the logic of not having children is a mercy because nonbeing is less harm than existence. I think it is flawed in thinking about pain and loss in black and white terms as "bad" and therefore to be avoided. This will lead to a really narrow life. Kids love to make sand castles at the beach, and they cry when they get knocked over by the next wave. Does that mean that they should never make sand castles?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#65

Post by sysbin »

I can only write from my own anecdotal personal experiences.

The USA is still more so religious than Canada from my interactions with young people in both countries. Although, the perception that religion is comparable to a cult is rising among the shared expressed views of religion compared to ten years ago. I don't necessarily think religion is bad for society if we educate people to be closer to understanding reality by conclusive science than the whims of faith-based thoughts.

In any case I definitely witness patriotism decreasing because the young generation has been having a difficult time in society financially speaking and compared to their parents. I would think most young people feel betrayed that quality of life is somewhat being stolen from them. This brings me to another assumption that desires to have kids is being grossly influenced by lack of finances and subconsciously. Everyone I know is opting in for a dog or a cat and so they can try to afford a mortgage for a home. Build more homes to offset the cost!

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#66

Post by rubicon33 »

malvosenior wrote: post #63
rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

If there is no afterlife, then the only way to carry your ideas and genes into the future is to have children. It seems like the destruction of religion would get more people interested in having children as it's the only "higher" function that exists for mortal beings. Regardless of today's trends, in 100 years the only people who will exist will be those who's parents had children.

> ideas and genes into the future is to have children

This thinking disturbs me.

I don't care about my "ideas" and my genes. I care about being alive, actually being alive. Your "ideas" and genes being passed on, is nothing even close to the afterlife I'm talking about. Not even close.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#67

Post by yesenadam »

Miner49er wrote: post #61
asdf21 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy. What makes you think that, exactly?

Well, let me give some examples. Citizenship is used to deny people without it participation in Democracy and deny them certain freedoms, for example. Borders deny freedom of movement and are currently being used to lock people up (deny them virtually all freedom) for crossing an imaginary line. Nations create and enforce inequality is basically what it comes down to. They are created and enforced through violence.

Some good points, but I don't think 'nationalism' means what you think it means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#68

Post by Miner49er »

yesenadam wrote: post #67
Miner49er wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let me give some examples. Citizenship is used to deny people without it participation in Democracy and deny them certain freedoms, for example. Borders deny freedom of movement and are currently being used to lock people up (deny them virtually all freedom) for crossing an imaginary line. Nations create and enforce inequality is basically what it comes down to. They are created and enforced through violence.

Some good points, but I don't think 'nationalism' means what you think it means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

Well, yeah I'm talking about "nations" but you can't have nationalism without a nation. And you can't have a nation without the idea of citizenship or borders right?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#69

Post by malvosenior »

rubicon33 wrote: post #66
malvosenior wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is no afterlife, then the only way to carry your ideas and genes into the future is to have children. It seems like the destruction of religion would get more people interested in having children as it's the only "higher" function that exists for mortal beings. Regardless of today's trends, in 100 years the only people who will exist will be those who's parents had children.

> ideas and genes into the future is to have children This thinking disturbs me. I don't care about my "ideas" and my genes. I care about being alive, actually being alive. Your "ideas" and genes being passed on, is nothing even close to the afterlife I'm talking about. Not even close.

> I don't care about my "ideas" and my genes.

You are in the minority. For most living beings, reproduction is the prime objective.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#70

Post by julienreszka »

inimino wrote: post #59
julienreszka wrote: post #4

"WSJ/NBC News telephone poll conducted of 1,000 adults from Aug. 10–14; margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points" This is all I need to know that this study doesn't have any worth. The required sample size for statistical significance is at least 8 times larger than this.

> This is all I need to know Perhaps you should update your understanding of how polls work and are to be interpreted... if you think you understand statistics better than the WSJ, consider that you might be mistaken.

The WSJ is grossly incompetent when it comes to polling.

https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AI628_100616_G...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-tr...

Not only the sample size is wrong but also the method. Telephone polling is totally inadequate today. Most people ignore phone calls.

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