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Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

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Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#41

Post by gourabmi »

rubicon33 wrote: post #19
metalliqaz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

Sort of depends on your opinion about what "constitutes" a person. Is just the physical body? Is it the genes? Is it the bonds they form and the memories they make? Is it the difference they made in the lives of their kind ; effected social change, contributed to research or in general been a good influence on other? All of these tend to live on after the physical body is no more. There is no mystic element to it. Just plain facts.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#42

Post by save_ferris »

cwperkins wrote: post #10
jandrese wrote: post #2

It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity. The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often identify themselves. I think if you asked the younger generati…

With all due respect, I did not vote for the president but now find myself more aligned with the Republicans than any 2020 Democrat. Its a smear that they are anti-Diversity. A lot of the young men I know feel disenfranchised in a system that does not value them even though they are not in any positions of power. All are sympathetic to historical injustices and see the President doing things like First Step Act and O…

> Its a smear that they are anti-diversity.

No it's not. Many prominent figures in the GOP have courted openly racist views over the years.

Some highlights:

Rep Steve King, who has a very long history of espousing racist views, openly questioned why "White Nationalism" is now an offensive term.[0] Do you believe that the concept of white nationalism or any of its ancillary movements to be offensive?

Deceased GOP strategist Tom Hofeller was an architect behind current efforts to gerrymander voting districts throughout the US, and his daughter handed over a hard drive containing documents he wrote that described in detail efforts to take voting strength away from voters of color by implementing a citizenship question on the 2020 census.

How can the desire to take voting power away from non-whites be construed as anything other than racist? The GOP is clearly threatened by the minority vote and have taken dramatic steps behind the scenes to remove them from the voting population[1].

> A lot of the young men I know feel disenfranchised in a system that does not value them even though they are not in any positions of power.

And how exactly does the GOP plan to deal with this? Bernie's Green New Deal guarantees thousands of jobs because the progressive movement sees stagnation among the youth. The GOP just cuts taxes and claims everyone wins when that's far from the reality.

0: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/us/politics/steve-king-of...

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/us/north-carolina-gerryma...

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#43

Post by zipwitch »

rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

>If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life?

If there is no afterlife, no elsewhere, then the takeaway is not that nothing matters, or that life has no point. Rather, it is the opposite: what we do in the here and now is the only thing that will ever matter.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#44

Post by pnathan »

In the circles I watch and hang around, we've moved from a cynical nihilism about government (nothing matters, elites always win) to a reckoning that we have to invest time and energy in our governance to get it to work for us.

That age band is the 30-40 year olds, with a smattering of older and younger. I would say we have gotten more idealistic, but also more pragmatic. We like the ideals, we recognize that the country coasted when we were younger, now it's time to take up the burden that the older generations didn't. Things aren't going to just happen with a march here or a slogan there. We need to invest ourselves, and this seems to be broadly understood.

Regarding religion - no observer is going to be surprised that religion is collapsing in the US. No one should be surprised. I think we have some curious turns ahead there, but I'll defer those to a theological/religious studies audience.

And, of course, kids relates to the economic environment and the state of the parents' mental health. If you're worried about providing for yourself and you're a responsible human being, you are not going to have kids, because you know you nee to provide for them too.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#45

Post by gourabmi »

asdf21 wrote: post #24
Miner49er wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the case here. I think it means the younger generations are not patriotic - not simply that they don't support the current administration. As a young American, I would rate my patriotism as 0, because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy.

>because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy. What makes you think that, exactly?

Here is some food for thought on that subject http://tagoreweb.in/Render/ShowContent.aspx?ct=Essays&bi=72E...

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#46

Post by metalliqaz »

rubicon33 wrote: post #19
metalliqaz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.”

A legacy is the closest we really get to an "afterlife". Children offer two kinds of legacy. One is the memory of you, the other is the continuation of your genes.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#47

Post by marmaduke »

uoaei wrote: post #8
jandrese wrote: post #2

It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity. The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often identify themselves. I think if you asked the younger generati…

Members of the younger generation (myself included) have little experience with administrations who demonstrate their fealty to the abstract ideals of the USA. We have, with few exceptions, not been led by people who have the US populace -- in contrast to its economy and hegemony -- at the forefront of their minds. NAFTA, and globalization more broadly, and its effects has progressed to the point where the promises o…

I mostly agree with you, even if this reads like a shortened college essay.

> We're pretty peeved that this blatant deceit is lost on the older generations

My parents are 60-70yo, in the streets for Sanders. I don't think you are the only cynic, far from it, but the real problem is when cynicism breeds obedience. You can't believe your cynicism isn't the result of calculation, can you?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#48

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

rubicon33 wrote: post #19
metalliqaz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

My kids are me.

When I see them walking like me, taking like me and arguing with me like I did with y parents... That's my afterlife.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#49

Post by monkeyodeath »

Religion, at least the dominant Evangelical Christian kind, has gotten increasingly politicized, to the point where religious == conservative (note I'm using JS-style "truthy" here, I know that this isn't a blanket case).

So it's not surprising that young Americans, who are generally liberal, don't consider themselves religious.

And as for having kids? Not only is it more expensive and stressful than ever before, but we're slowly moving away from the mindset that a woman's primary purpose is to raise children.

That, and I think a lot of folks have started to reflect on how having kids didn't seem to make their unhappy parents any more fulfilled.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#50

Post by ericd »

rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

It's quite possible to live an enjoyable and fulfilling life without believing in an afterlife. And if you enjoy life, it doesn't seem so bad to bring others into it, especially if you enjoy each others company.

You sound like you might be depressed/feeling hopeless. And if you think that's the case, I'd highly recommend finding a therapist to talk to. Try new ones until you find one that you click with. They might be able to help you find a bit more happiness in life.

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