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Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

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Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#21

Post by save_ferris »

rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

I’m the exact same way. I look around and think “no way am I bringing offspring into this world.”

I got really lucky being OK at programming and finding my way into a decent paying career, but it’s so disheartening to see so many around me struggle with no end in sight.

Add to that climate change, and it’s definite no for me.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#22

Post by uoaei »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #20
uoaei wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Members of the younger generation (myself included) have little experience with administrations who demonstrate their fealty to the abstract ideals of the USA. We have, with few exceptions, not been led by people who have the US populace -- in contrast to its economy and hegemony -- at the forefront of their minds. NAFTA, and globalization more broadly, and its effects has progressed to the point where the promises o…

> Not so if we were born 70 years ago. Really? That means growing up during late 60's, 70's, 80's. Vietnam, Watergate, trickle-down economics, ...

Being born in 1949, the aftermath of WWII, when the US experienced perhaps its starkest wealth increase on a national and personal level (think American Dream, green lawns, and white picket fences!) and the pathos was high to pursue such ideals, would have still been a boon. Yes one probably would have been drafted into Vietnam but in my view even the national conversation about that war was a healthy one for the country.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#23

Post by asdf21 »

rco8786 wrote: post #14

33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way…

We are easily the best large country (over 150M population or so) as far as any sort of civil liberties, standards of living, etc.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#24

Post by asdf21 »

Miner49er wrote: post #9
jandrese wrote: post #2

It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity. The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often identify themselves. I think if you asked the younger generati…

I don't think this is the case here. I think it means the younger generations are not patriotic - not simply that they don't support the current administration. As a young American, I would rate my patriotism as 0, because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy.

>because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy.

What makes you think that, exactly?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#25

Post by monkeyodeath »

jandrese wrote: post #2

It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity. The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often identify themselves. I think if you asked the younger generati…

The poll mentions "patriotism", not "nationalism", and I think those are two different things. "Nationalism" increasingly refers to an exclusivist mindset, whereas "patriotism" at least used to be more "pride in one's country".

Older people grew up during the Cold War, when the USA perceived itself as a bulwark of freedom and democracy in a world of opaque, totalitarian regimes, and when the country was further ahead than most of the rest of the world in development.

These days, a lot of the rest of the world has caught up, and a lot of younger Americans feel discouraged about the state of democracy in their own country. We aren't at the vanguard of freedom and functional government anymore.

Plus, over the past few decades, "patriotism" has been increasingly associated with flag/anthem worship, military boosting, and a kind of rah-rah "USA! USA!" attitude that has little to do with freedom and democracy. It's been turned into a marketing tool and a cudgel that right-wing political groups have used against their opponents since the Vietnam War.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#26

Post by paulsutter »

asdf21 wrote: post #23
rco8786 wrote: post #14

33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way…

We are easily the best large country (over 150M population or so) as far as any sort of civil liberties, standards of living, etc.

Having lived in Japan I assure you that you're mistaken. Have you travelled?

EDIT: I'm fine with a search by Japanese police, yet I would never answer a question asked by a policeman in the US except through a lawyer. What does that say about civil liberties?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#27

Post by asdf21 »

rubicon33 wrote: post #19
metalliqaz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

His DNA continues.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#28

Post by asdf21 »

paulsutter wrote: post #26
asdf21 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are easily the best large country (over 150M population or so) as far as any sort of civil liberties, standards of living, etc.

Having lived in Japan I assure you that you're mistaken. Have you travelled? EDIT: I'm fine with a search by Japanese police, yet I would never answer a question asked by a policeman in the US except through a lawyer. What does that say about civil liberties?

Sure Japan is not nearly as large, and has basically zero ethnic diversity, but it's probably the next closet thing.

Did you notice how many higher population countries you passed up to get there..?

- China

- India

- Indonesia

- Brazil

- Pakistan

- Nigeria

- Bangladesh

- Russia

- Mexico

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#29

Post by oblio »

asdf21 wrote: post #23
rco8786 wrote: post #14

33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way…

We are easily the best large country (over 150M population or so) as far as any sort of civil liberties, standards of living, etc.

Ok, but past a certain point, let's say 20 million or to be conservative 50 million people, population numbers stop mattering for you as an individual.

The average American (out of >330m) won't have a radically better life than a Frenchman (out of >65m) or a German (out of >80m).

It's a nice collective achievement to be able to scale to so many people, but individually, I don't think there's a huge individual benefit once the overall population crosses a certain threshold.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#30

Post by rscho »

rubicon33 wrote: post #19
metalliqaz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

Username checks out, as they say.

See the writings of Plato for an argument on the forms of immortality. Having children is one of them.

Of course, one can disagree but it's not a new concept.

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