Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#131

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

sk5t wrote: post #96

novacole wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Rome isn’t Western Europe. So western Europe’s entire history is a “dark age” before the Age of Enlightenment. (Edit: incorrectly said renaissance instead of Age of Enlightenment... the renaissance wasn’t Western European either)

What's this about "Rome isn’t Western Europe"--have you consulted a map of the Roman empire?

Have you looked at the population spread of the Roman Empire? Rome had people, the rest of the empire was predominantly to the East/South. Rome was Mediterranean, not Western European.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#132

Post by leereeves » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

roboys wrote: post #128

Chathamization wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there definitely seems to have been a large decline in population, economic output, political cohesion, urbanization, record keeping, trade, etc., in much of the former Roman world following the fifth/sixth century. I suppose it's a value judgement on whether one considers that a "bad time."

The dark ages also saw a huge disparity in education between the East and the West. Until the 15th century less than 5 people in Europe could do long division. For comparison, Aryabhatta discovered calculus in 5th century India and Madhava made large contributions in the 13th century (Newton/Leibniz were wrongly credited for similar work many years later).

The way I heard it, Aryabhatta and those who followed discovered some of the ideas behind calculus and a few useful results, but not calculus itself, neither the basic ideas like derivatives and integrals nor the vast conclusions that followed from those.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#133

Post by yesenadam » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

mdemare wrote: post #114

dredmorbius wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has been a largely continuous political entity for about 8,000 years. It's been invaded at least in part a few times (Mongols, 13th c., English, 18th c., and Japanese, 20th c., most especially), but retained its overall identity and either assimilated (Mongols) or repelled (English, Japanese) the invaders, eventually. Contrast Europe which has seen vast shifts in control, and utter replacements or eradication o…

That text is over 1000 years old. This is Shakespeare, from 1599: Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones; So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus Hath told you Caesar was ambitious: If it were so, it was a grievous fault, And grievously hath Caesar answer’d it. Hardly foreign

That's a modernised version! Because the original isn't easy to read, I guess. Punctuation, spelling, letterforms, the alphabet, have all changed since then. Pronunciation too. The original is something like this ('f' is the closest I can get to the old 's'):

Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears:

I come to bury Cæfar, not to praife him:

The euill that men do, liues after them,

The good is oft enterred with their bones,

So let it be with Cæfar. The Noble Brutus,

Hath told you Cæfar was Ambitious:

If it were fo, it was a greeuous Fault,

And greeuoufly hath Cæfar anfwer'd it.

Heere, vnder leaue of Brutus, and the reft ...

https://iiif.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/iiif/image/74391696-b1e6-4b56...

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/doc/JC_F1/page/13/

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#134

Post by gingabriska » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 10:43 AM UTC

tempguy9999 wrote: post #129

gingabriska wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romans culturally ate less meat and frowned upon their Northern Germanic Tribes who almost always ate meat. They were more frugal in their way of life. The Germanic Tribes were also taller and were acknowledged by Romans as formidable warrior. Culturally tho, Romans were South Europeans and assimilated what we call South Italy and Greece now. They also captured parts of middle east but culturally they never became Ro…

> people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth I assume 'people' excluded slaves?

Yes that's right.

*I mean the Germanic tribes in North ate meat everyday.

Why the Downvotes? Anyone wants to challenge these facts, please post rebuttal. I'd love to educate myself more.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#135

Post by yesenadam » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 11:03 AM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #125

Paper makes you productive. Romans did not have it. They had papyrus, parchments and wax tablets, none of them were as convenient or affordable as paper. The adoption of paper was what really set things in motion in Europe, the Renaissance.

Paper - yet another Chinese invention, about 100AD, along with movable type printing, about 1000AD. With gunpowder and compass, two more Chinese inventions, Europeans navigated and conquered the world..

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#136

Post by gingabriska » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 11:04 AM UTC

gingabriska wrote: post #124

olooney wrote: post #2

Romans aren't the outlier here. Most ancient civilizations had a similar level of accomplishment; a one or two outstanding mathematicians every century, a few practical applications, some new rules of thumb. We did have a dark age, after the Romans after all, which likewise produced little (not none) new math. The question should rather be, what made the Greeks (and, later, others who adopted their deductive, axiomat…

>Romans after all, which likewise produced little (not none) new math. They had Archimedes of Syracuse

I'd love to know why I got downvoted.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#137

Post by tempguy9999 » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 11:09 AM UTC

gingabriska wrote: post #134

tempguy9999 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth I assume 'people' excluded slaves?

Yes that's right. *I mean the Germanic tribes in North ate meat everyday. Why the Downvotes? Anyone wants to challenge these facts, please post rebuttal. I'd love to educate myself more.

Heh, I know the feeling!

But then again, you say stuff about how romans vs germanic meat eating, but I don't see any citations for that. They'd be helpful.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#138

Post by Sag0Sag0 » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 11:19 AM UTC

known wrote: post #58

The Arabic countries led by the Muslims were the most advanced scientists/engineers in the world, until they let the religious crazies take over. J https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_engine...

I just have to object.

Early science throughout the world came about because of religion, not despite it. Early Muslim proto scientists like Ibn Sina and Ibn Khaldun explicitly did their science through religion and were heavily involved the religious politics of the day. This was also true also of early scientists in europe like Issac Newton.

Also that statement implicitly kinda carries the idea that europeans took over role of the "advancers of science" due to their tolerance and secularism. That was certainly not the case, european christianity in the 16th and 17th centuries was not in any way tolerant/moderate.

Similarly even if we agree that a decline occurred there are a myriad of other factors that could potentially cause a drop in scientific output such as the various consequences of war, the policies of the Ottoman empire, a lack of the urbanisation that occurred in China and Europe etc.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#139

Post by wolfgke » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 11:21 AM UTC

kennywinker wrote: post #20

steve19 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but the Dark Age specifically refers to Western Europe, in much the same way the disastrous impact of the Mongol Empire on Islamic scholarship, for example the burning of libraries during or after the Siege of Baghdad, barely touched Western Europe. Chances are the Mongols destroyed some advanced mathematics that took centuries to rediscover.

The dark ages simply refers to the loss of texts. There are few surviving texts from that period, so it is “dark”. Later the term was re-branded to mean “bad time when no new science was done” but that’s a viewpoint that doesn’t fit the facts. Source (a very enjoyable read at that!): https://going-medieval.com/2017/05/26/theres-no-such-thing-a...

> The dark ages simply refers to the loss of texts. There are few surviving texts from that period, so it is “dark”. Later the term was re-branded to mean “bad time when no new science was done” but that’s a viewpoint that doesn’t fit the facts.

Relevant (even though considered as pseudoscience):

> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Chronology_(F...

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#140

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 11:22 AM UTC

gingabriska wrote: post #120

fsloth wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean, but: 1. Roman empire dominion included, but did not limit to what we now refer to as Western Europe... 2... of whose languages are either mostly descended from, or heavily influenced by Latin... 3. ... And where the dominant religion is still the Roman state religion. Which was lorded over by the Roman state church for a thousand years before an angry German monk suggested that this was re…

Romans culturally ate less meat and frowned upon their Northern Germanic Tribes who almost always ate meat. They were more frugal in their way of life. The Germanic Tribes were also taller and were acknowledged by Romans as formidable warrior. Culturally tho, Romans were South Europeans and assimilated what we call South Italy and Greece now. They also captured parts of middle east but culturally they never became Ro…

> But then again, people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth

That depends on when you're talking about. Until Caracalla made all free subjects citizens in 212 AD (supposedly so that he could tax them more heavily),[1] Roman citizenship was restricted and highly coveted.

> There were other Pagan religions at the time and in middle east Jews didn't accept Roman state religion.

From the late 300s onwards, pagans were persecuted in the Roman Empire. Nicene Christianity was the state religion. Also, Jews lived throughout the empire, not just in the Middle East. From about the 1st century AD onwards, there were more Jews living outside of the land of Israel than within it.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio_Antoniniana