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Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

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Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#71
post #2

Romans aren't the outlier here. Most ancient civilizations had a similar level of accomplishment; a one or two outstanding mathematicians every century, a few practical applications, some new rules of thumb. We did have a dark age, after the Romans after all, which likewise produced little (not none) new math. The question should rather be, what made the Greeks (and, later, others who adopted their deductive, axiomat…

I "belivie" it is effect of cumulative knowledge from all their trade partners, who when put together is pretty much everyone on the planet at the time, since they were physically at the center of trade routes.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Romans did calculations using pebbles or other counters on a counting board. I think you just made my point :-) Have fun doing long division that way.

Wouldn’t a slide-rule be a similar modern day approach?

An (analog) slide rule is a whole lot faster than doing digital arithmetic. But it’s approximate, yielding about 3 digits of precision, or maybe 4 digits on a large slide rule.

With an abacus or with written numbers, you can get 10 digits of precision (or 50) if you are willing to put the work in.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rise of technology was not so much the birth of new capacities, but the removal of old constraints. China, despite a much larger and more educated population, did not spark the industrial revolution. Their feedback loops were too stable, their elites too competent. From the perspective of the old power hierarchy, the industrial revolution was a disaster. The nobility floated on that great cruel ocean first charte…

How much of the Chinese/Japanese vs Western Europe dichotomy in term of technological development do you think is due to geography (Europe has been fractured, politically, for all of history, mostly due to geography, I think, whereas China and Japan have both been comparatively unified and stable for thousands of years). My thinking is that this has a lot to do with how European elites were not able to prevent accumu…

The general form of this question, or at least one version of it ("why did the Industrial Revolution occur in England and not in China, which had developed a vastly larger set of technologies far earlier") is known as the Needham Question, after sinologist Joseph Needham, author of Science and Civilisation in China, an epic 30+ volume work covering Chinese invention and technology, begun in 1954 and still in process. (Needham himself died in the 1990s.) There's a fascinating Wikipedia article on the topic, and if you can find a copy of the completed volumes (many college/university libraries have it), it's a treat.

The general question of the how, why, and when of the Industrial Revolution has fascinated historians, technologists, and economists for ages. Karl Polanyi's The Great Transformation, Gregory Clark's A Farewell to Alms,[1] and numerous other works address this.

Geographic determinism has become tremendously unpopular among historians, though elements of it carry weight with me. Of China and Japan vs. Europe and Britain, there are several factors:

- Political unity vs. disunity, as you note.

- Crops. Wheat is suitable to individual, independent farming. Rice requires community coordination.

- Hydrology. The Chinese empire effectively started as a large civil water works management bureaucracy. Outside Egypt and Rome's aqueducts, there was no similarly-scoped coordination in the West.

- Watersheds. Europe's rivers diverge from the interior, China's flow in parallel to relatively proximate mouths. Political boundaries in Europe have typically conformed reasonably well to watersheds, though allied / opposed alignments have changed with time. Even today, many county-level jurisdictions correspond to local watersheds. And in both China and Europe, virtually all heavy transport until modern times was along rivers or canals, if not sea or lakes.

- While Britain and Japan are both large islands near continental empires, the geology is utterly different: sedimentary with vast coal deposits, and volcanic with virtually no fossil fuels. While each island was tremendously politically stable, resistant to invasions, England could fuel growth of iron, glass, and steam industries, Japan could not. England was generally relatively wealthy, Japan was one of the poorest countries prior to industrialisation.

- China has long been politically unified (if subject to occasional invasions), Europe has long been politically fractured. China could shut down innovation and foreign trade. No such global policies were possible in Europe.

Within Europe, the distribution of coal is almost wholly in the north: Wales, England, a tiny patch in northern Spain, some in France, and heavy deposits in Germany and Poland. Southern Germany is very fuel-poor, excepting petroleum (not very handy in pre-industrial times) in Silesia, Romania, and Baku (Russia). Coal fueled metalurgy, glassmaking, and eventually steam power in England.

England's flat terrain and ready access to the sea (no part of Great Britain is more than 60 miles from the coast) made transport of the bulky fuel by ship viable. Overland transport wasn't an option -- firewood fuel locally gathered was far more attractive. A similar situation existed in the US where coal didn't overtake wood as a fuel until the 1880s. Rail transport finally made hauling coal from mountain-based mines in Apallachia possible, but benefited greatly from advances in steelmaking (Bessemer process, 1860s), allowing stronger, less fracture-prone rails, and stronger, more powerful locomotives. Rail is effectively canals-on-land, the first truly viable overland freight tansport mode.

There are many other factors, there's tremendous dispute over all of this, and as I've hinted, there's a large literature. I obviously find the geological argument at least plausible in many regards. Given the lack of testability, final adjudication of the question is unlikely.

________________________________

Notes:

1. Clark teaches a course at UC Davis on economic history before the Industrial Revolution, which touches somewhat on this (the principle focus is Europe). A corrected playlist for the YouTube lectures, in proper order, is here: https://pastebin.com/raw/bgKkGyjt

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#74
post #2

Romans aren't the outlier here. Most ancient civilizations had a similar level of accomplishment; a one or two outstanding mathematicians every century, a few practical applications, some new rules of thumb. We did have a dark age, after the Romans after all, which likewise produced little (not none) new math. The question should rather be, what made the Greeks (and, later, others who adopted their deductive, axiomat…

Or maybe its far too soon for us to say if the West (or the Greeks who you guys almost worship as a culture) has produced more than 1 or 2 great mathematicians?

Maybe the peoples of the future will only consider one particular mathematician as the relevant one? Maybe like Turing, because most likely computers will become a greater part of the world at large? Maybe we see programmers the way people used to see scribes some time back?

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Romans did calculations using pebbles or other counters on a counting board. I think you just made my point :-) Have fun doing long division that way.

You can do long division just fine on a counting board, though it is unclear if people had developed something like the modern elementary school division algorithm 2000+ years ago. We don’t really know much about people’s calculation algorithms, because they were an oral tradition not written down, and only a very small number of counting boards (e.g. made of marble) survived; others were presumably made of leather,…

> You can do long division just fine on a counting board

I searched around a bit, and didn't find much of anything you could do with a counting board beyond division.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've seen that table. It was just a few entries, if I recall correctly. Few enough that one could have gotten the numbers by using drawings instead of calculation. And there were errors in it, too. > And yes, making such tables is inherently “awfully ugly and tedious”, Yup, but people did make such extensive tables long before calculators, many thousands more entries than that chord table, and far more accurate…

Ptolemy’s table has the chords for every possible angle in ½° increments (360 table entries in all), to 3 sexagesimal digits of precision, or about 5.5 decimal digits of precision. It also had an additional column showing the derivative of the chord function at each ½° at 5 sexagesimal digits of precision, for use interpolating at arbitrary angles in between the listed ½° increments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pto…

> You might be thinking of Hipparchus’s table

Sounds like it.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Our most important achievement has been to create a system where smart people spend their life trying to get people to click on ads, using morally dubious dark-patterns.

If I had to bet, western society will be judged for creating an industrialized world while knowingly ignoring the effect of greenhouse gases.

To be fair I think the severity of climate change has only come into mainstream focus in the past 5-10 years. Just as one data point, when I was shopping for a car in 2012, I did not even consider CO2 emissions. Now, climate change is top of mind for me. I now own an electric car, stopped eating beef, mostly eliminated travel, etc... I'm not saying this will make a difference overall, but I imagine others feel similarly, and a lot of young people will hopefully be in a position to work on solving some of these problems.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dark ages simply refers to the loss of texts. There are few surviving texts from that period, so it is “dark”. Later the term was re-branded to mean “bad time when no new science was done” but that’s a viewpoint that doesn’t fit the facts. Source (a very enjoyable read at that!): https://going-medieval.com/2017/05/26/theres-no-such-thing-a...

I mean, there definitely seems to have been a large decline in population, economic output, political cohesion, urbanization, record keeping, trade, etc., in much of the former Roman world following the fifth/sixth century. I suppose it's a value judgement on whether one considers that a "bad time."

Curious if you have any sources? I've never seen a data driven case that such a thing as the "dark ages" ever happened.

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do long division just fine on a counting board, though it is unclear if people had developed something like the modern elementary school division algorithm 2000+ years ago. We don’t really know much about people’s calculation algorithms, because they were an oral tradition not written down, and only a very small number of counting boards (e.g. made of marble) survived; others were presumably made of leather,…

> You can do long division just fine on a counting board I searched around a bit, and didn't find much of anything you could do with a counting board beyond division.

Counting boards / the abacus are about as good as you get for calculating methods until mechanical calculators and logarithmic slide rules. So it's not really fair to say the Romans had a disadvantage here when no one had anything better. (Granted, the wire abacus was faster than counting boards / jetons).

Re: Why didn't the Romans contribute much to mathematics?

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the Chinese/Japanese vs Western Europe dichotomy in term of technological development do you think is due to geography (Europe has been fractured, politically, for all of history, mostly due to geography, I think, whereas China and Japan have both been comparatively unified and stable for thousands of years). My thinking is that this has a lot to do with how European elites were not able to prevent accumu…

The general form of this question, or at least one version of it ("why did the Industrial Revolution occur in England and not in China, which had developed a vastly larger set of technologies far earlier") is known as the Needham Question , after sinologist Joseph Needham, author of Science and Civilisation in China , an epic 30+ volume work covering Chinese invention and technology, begun in 1954 and still in proces…

Clearly by the 13th Century China could be considered a technological forerunner, but then the Mongols took over. I suspect the cultural tendencies of the Chinese civil service that drove innovation just couldn’t weather the merging of cultures and the scholarly edge of Chinese culture was collateral damage.
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