Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying • Hacker News Board

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#131

Post by reggieband » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

dane-pgp wrote: post #12

Imagine you are the leader of a country with a large military budget, strong central control over domestic media and policy, but little influence over global technical standards or device manufacturing. Game theoretically, it would seem that a tempting strategy would be to spend money on influencing the debate in other countries to make them mistrustful of new technology, to slow their economy and relative growth. If…

I know you're getting downvoted for this controversial insinuation ... but I must admit my mind went there while I was reading these comments. The amount of FUD in this comment section, especially at the top, is almost suspicious.

I get it that 5G doesn't exactly match the hype, that the cost of rollout is high, alternatives like improving 4G coverage and back-haul from towers are available, there are hints of problems with saturating the air in such high-powered/high-spectrum radiation etc. But how a group of supposedly tech savvy, future thinking, entrepreneurial types seem single-mindedly focused on the negative aspects of a technology seems to not match the normal crowd on hacker news.

5G isn't revolutionary but it is the exact kind of incremental improvement I expect to see in tech. It has some benefits (higher speeds, lower latency) and some drawbacks (proximity to towers, interference from large objects, cost to rollout). The discussion here seems to be entirely limited to maximizing the drawbacks and to limiting the benefits.

In my experience with tech, increasing speed and decreasing latency has always netted noticeable benefits. From CPUs, GPUs, memory access and network access - even small improvements in speed/latency have enabled major improvements in features. In addition, rolling out 5G is going to force the rollout of infrastructure enabling 5G, e.g. the fibre lines needed to supply all of those new base stations. For those reasons I am excited about 5G.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#132

Post by mola » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

api wrote: post #34

m12k wrote: post #18

It's my impression that the vanguard of the anti-vaxxer movement have long since moved on to 5G as their battleground of choice. And to be fair, of all the places they could try to incite another mindless panic, this is probably the most harmless they could have chosen - at least this time around no children will die from it.

It's a shame that so much activism is spent on nonsense and even outright destructive nonsense. All that energy could be going toward improving things that matter. Of course I think maybe what we are seeing is the activist arm of what I've heard called "conspiritainment." It's a way for people to LARP as activists at no real inconvenience to themselves. They get to feel self righteous at no real cost. It also feels a…

I dunno, Anti vaxxers are definitely going against power. (Not to mean they are correct)

I think call conflating 'white saviour tourism's with this phenomena is missing the point.

We live in an age where basic trust in authority has eroded. The erosion is perfectly rational. We've seen large corporations manipulate the media in crazy Orwellian language. We've become accustomed to PR stooges going on media outlets and blurbing new speak and falsey truths .

This in tune with weaponizing of almost all form of discours, meaning we are almost always at a debate where our goal is to annihilate the other person ability to convince, rather than find common grounds. Have left us totally detached from truth. Not in a sense of total objective truth, but in the sense of common ground for discourse even though we don't agree on everything.

Anti vaxxers , anti 5g, flat earthers, regardless of the validity of their claim, are a symptom of this. 1. We can't blame them for not trusting authority, when authority is found lying again and again. 2. They formed a social construct where common ground , i.e. truth, finally exists.

I believe this is an epistemological crisis. Not just virtue signaling, or a weird form of entertainment

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#133

Post by guntars » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

The_rationalist wrote: post #99

api wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame that so much activism is spent on nonsense and even outright destructive nonsense. All that energy could be going toward improving things that matter. Of course I think maybe what we are seeing is the activist arm of what I've heard called "conspiritainment." It's a way for people to LARP as activists at no real inconvenience to themselves. They get to feel self righteous at no real cost. It also feels a…

What you say is logically valid, why are you being downvoted?

People are just using the “I don’t like how this makes me feel” button.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#134

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

There's such weird marketing zealotry behind 5G. They're acting like it's going to completely reshape society, but at best it's just... faster internet. In places where the internet is already pretty fast. I can only assume it's a mixture of political and economic stakeholders that have their own reasons for really wanting it to succeed (looking competitive against China, selling new phones, etc.)

> at best it's just... faster internet Counterpoint: streaming audio and video were singularly enabled by faster internet. That is restructuring multibillion-dollar industries. The iPhone, one could argue, and through it real-time social media, are products of mobile internet. There are legitimate new capabilities that will likely erupt from cheaper, faster mobile internet. If the playground is in Shenzhen versus Sil…

I'm saddened that streaming is seen as something important.

5G may add IoT which can have value for everybody if done well (or not if it ends up as a sensation of being monitored 24/7 even without privacy issue)

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#135

Post by kube-system » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #95

kube-system wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ask who the competitors are, and what happens if we come in second place. See if you buy the answer. I suspect you won’t hear anything convincing. That’s kind of a silly and easily-answered question by itself, especially for tech. If you asked anyone with a minimal business background they’d have an easy answer for that: it’s a strategy leveraging first-mover advantage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-mover_a…

This editorial was written within the context of countries. I understand why Verizon wants to get 5G before AT&T, but I don’t think the US should allocate public resources to help. If the result is that China gets 5G before the US, fine.

I’m not sure the US should allocate resources to do that either. But that’s irrelevant, all countries have an interest in the success of their industry, and the strength of their utility infrastructure. These things have been a matter of political interest for millennia.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#136

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #115

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at best it's just... faster internet Counterpoint: streaming audio and video were singularly enabled by faster internet. That is restructuring multibillion-dollar industries. The iPhone, one could argue, and through it real-time social media, are products of mobile internet. There are legitimate new capabilities that will likely erupt from cheaper, faster mobile internet. If the playground is in Shenzhen versus Sil…

Counter counterpoint, humans have ears and eyes and already have streaming audio and video. Those things were clearly desirable and now possible. What are the legitimate new capabilities you're thinking of, which many people desire, but can't have primarily because of (mobile) internet speeds?

Even mobile phones are now getting 90hz screens, yet we struggle to stream anything with more than 30hz at decent quality. This might not be noticable in most movies, but game streams could be much better and sports events could benefit a lot too.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#137

Post by manmal » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

renaudg wrote: post #119

Really surprised to see the beating heart of tech that is HN turn into a luddite forum on this occasion. Last week I got upgraded from 4G to 5G for home broadband here in London, UK. It just became commercially available in my area (on Three) As I said in another comment, my average speeds went up from 5-10Mbps to 150-250Mbps and peak ones from 20-25Mbps to 350-400Mbps. It absolutely is the game changer it's advertis…

My 4G connection in Austria has been able to do 120Mbps for years now, sometimes even 180Mbps. What you are seeing might simply be that you are mostly alone in your cell, and not really 5G related. Once more people have a 5G modem, things will get worse for you again.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#138

Post by sroussey » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #114

apcragg wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for the big telecomm's but I design parts of the radios and DSP algorithms implementing the major cellular technologies.

What are your thoughts on the safety concerns?

Worry about your blender. Seriously. Big electric motor.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#139

Post by apcragg » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #121

apcragg wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being confident enough to trash-talk based on hearsay is just being arrogant.

Dismissing other people's information and sources without knowing what they are or where they're from, assuming your knowledge is automatically superior, laughing at them, is similarly just being arrogant. And then, after being pushed, admitting you have a vested interest in making them sound better and your job depends on it, isn't a good look.

I mean my sources are the actual 5G Standards, the test equipment I've used, and my knowledge of cellular systems stemming from experience and and formal education so yeah, I think it's a fair assumption that my knowledge is more than "some things I heard". My job does not depend on the success or failure of 5G, I don't know where you got that from.

Re: Cities Are Saying ‘No’ to 5G, Citing Health, Aesthetics, and FCC Bullying

#140

Post by liability » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

There's such weird marketing zealotry behind 5G. They're acting like it's going to completely reshape society, but at best it's just... faster internet. In places where the internet is already pretty fast. I can only assume it's a mixture of political and economic stakeholders that have their own reasons for really wanting it to succeed (looking competitive against China, selling new phones, etc.)

> at best it's just... faster internet Counterpoint: streaming audio and video were singularly enabled by faster internet. That is restructuring multibillion-dollar industries. The iPhone, one could argue, and through it real-time social media, are products of mobile internet. There are legitimate new capabilities that will likely erupt from cheaper, faster mobile internet. If the playground is in Shenzhen versus Sil…

Streaming pre-recorded video (e.g. movies) over the radio is wildly inefficient considering flash memory costs peanuts. The primary reason it's done is because we're in desperate need of copyright reform (streaming is being used by the video industry as a form of DRM.)