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A person has died from a vaping-related condition

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Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#51

Post by dr_dshiv »

bsder wrote: post #26
dr_dshiv wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients -- yet it has been flogged by the media and prohibitionists as proof that vaping is just as dangerous as tobacco. I, for one, embrace vapetopia -- the cognitive libertarian's dream of mental states on demand.

> The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients The fact that California is also seeing incidents would seem to argue against this at least somewhat. It's certainly possible for this to be bad ingredients, but most of the cannabis-based stuff is mostly legal in California, so there's a decent negative feedback loop if you supply people with garbage.

Right. The usage by millions without issue would speak to the likelihood of either a bad batch or a sensitive individual?

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#52

Post by tempguy9999 »

imafish wrote: post #31
singingfish wrote: post #14

I'm guessing that if this really is associated with vaping then it's likely due to the limited regulation of the ingredients. Bad batch of VG/PG/nicotine? Some problematic flavouring? I think the best article I've found is at the BMJ: https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5228 - sorry, paywall. Very much inconslusive at the moment completely in the public health triage stage. Good idea to regulate it properly. I just…

Similar story here. Smoked for ten years. Actually found it easy to replace smoking with vaping (strong menthol). Stopped vaping after 1 year because I was suffering from GERD and suspected that vaping was an attributing factor. Since I stopped 5 years ago, my GERD symptoms have more or less disappeared. I really enjoyed vaping, probably more than smoking, but somehow it did not seem to have the same addictive effect…

> somehow it did not seem to have the same addictive effect on me as smoking had

Nicotine by itself isn't much addictive until mixed with stuff called MAOIs. Here's an earlier post of mine that gives a bit more detail https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20536162

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#53

Post by dr_dshiv »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #47
dr_dshiv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social progress is prohibition or freedom of choice? What's the harm?

I think the harm is probably in the re-normalisation of nicotine addiction. I smoked for a long time, and went on a vape recently, but the ads everywhere (in Ireland/UK) for various vaping services and devices are pretty concerning. For me, it's harm reduction, but if non-smokers start vaping, that's a net loss.

Is addiction a problem, separate from cancer?

Coffee addiction is preventable, for instance.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#54

Post by magoon »

“Vaping” can often mean people filling mod boxes (not Juuls) with any sort of juice containing anything. Articles and studies often include any random juice in any random shop, so there are endless unknowns.

Juuls and many other pens contain limited ingredients, namely nicotine and propylene glycol. We already know what nicotine does.

Propylene glycol is food safe and is also used in albuterol asthma inhalers.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#55

Post by meshenna »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #47
dr_dshiv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social progress is prohibition or freedom of choice? What's the harm?

I think the harm is probably in the re-normalisation of nicotine addiction. I smoked for a long time, and went on a vape recently, but the ads everywhere (in Ireland/UK) for various vaping services and devices are pretty concerning. For me, it's harm reduction, but if non-smokers start vaping, that's a net loss.

I think vaping is a genuine improvement, provided that the law treats it like it does tobacco, i.e. no advertising, age restrictions, etc. This is an anecdote, but in countries where those restrictions are in place, just about every vaper seems to be an ex-smoker, and nobody thinks vaping is cool or attractive.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#57

Post by dazzawazza »

magoon wrote: post #54

“Vaping” can often mean people filling mod boxes (not Juuls) with any sort of juice containing anything. Articles and studies often include any random juice in any random shop, so there are endless unknowns. Juuls and many other pens contain limited ingredients, namely nicotine and propylene glycol. We already know what nicotine does. Propylene glycol is food safe and is also used in albuterol asthma inhalers.

Vaping fumes trigger my asthma, there is all sorts of stuff in the second hand smoke. The smoking ban in the UK basically stopped me being admitted to hospital every few years and I appreciate that most bars/clubs have banned vaping inside (certainly in London).

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#58

Post by jowsie »

bsder wrote: post #26
dr_dshiv wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients -- yet it has been flogged by the media and prohibitionists as proof that vaping is just as dangerous as tobacco. I, for one, embrace vapetopia -- the cognitive libertarian's dream of mental states on demand.

> The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients The fact that California is also seeing incidents would seem to argue against this at least somewhat. It's certainly possible for this to be bad ingredients, but most of the cannabis-based stuff is mostly legal in California, so there's a decent negative feedback loop if you supply people with garbage.

I disagree with your last point. Up until the very recent explosion of 'pod mods' following the success of Juul, THC cartridges were (and still in a lot of cases are) most likely to be using CE4 style atomisers, or cartomisers/clearomisers, or any other technology that was in the process of being replaced due it being dated back when I started vaping over 5 years ago. Even now these THC cartridges are taking something with the viscosity of honey and sticking it into devices designed specifically for nicotine containing VG/PG.

This entire setup for vaping THC IS garbage. It's just more convenient and cheaper than the products designed specifically for THC methods

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#59

Post by floatingatoll »

floatingatoll wrote: post #13
buildzr wrote: post #5

> As the mechanism is unknown, it’s unclear what the actual danger is. Is it some byproduct of the nicotine cartidges, or THC ones? Is it the vapor itself? Is it only at certain temperatures or concentrations? Is it directly affecting the lungs or entering the bloodstream? No one knows yet — all they’ve seen is an sudden uptick in respiratory or pulmonary issues where the sufferer also uses vaping products. We've see…

Another vector of harm to consider — Keep in mind that “vapor” is used to disguise that, in all cases whether nicotine or pot or etc, people are heating up a substance to its smoke point and inhaling that smoke. They use “vapor” because it sounds like “water vapor” - which is harmless - but it’s definitely not that. Marijuana cartridges use marijuana oil or MCT oil as a base, for example. Nicotine uses glycol or othe…

Corrections below, thanks all! Glad this will be considered by a few people that replied, even if I fail at the precise sciences of it :(

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#60

Post by floatingatoll »

buildzr wrote: post #39
floatingatoll wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another vector of harm to consider — Keep in mind that “vapor” is used to disguise that, in all cases whether nicotine or pot or etc, people are heating up a substance to its smoke point and inhaling that smoke. They use “vapor” because it sounds like “water vapor” - which is harmless - but it’s definitely not that. Marijuana cartridges use marijuana oil or MCT oil as a base, for example. Nicotine uses glycol or othe…

I'm not a vape guy, but as far as I'm aware no combustion reaction is occurring, essentially it's boiling the substance at a far lower temperature than it would burn. Now, whether glycol and such are good things to inhale is another question but I haven't seen any studies pointing to significant issues with these directly, so I'm hesitant to jump the the conclusion suggested here.

The conclusion is “we should consider whether propylene glycol inhalation can lead to disorders”, not “we know whether it does”.
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