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Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

reuters.com

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Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#101

Post by coliveira »

krapp wrote: post #77
coliveira wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president controls the defense apparatus, which can label any country they wish a "threat to national security", which according to laws enacted since 9/11 can prevent American companies to do business with other countries. In the post 9/11, trumpian world, economic freedom depends on the mood of the president.

I'm sure you feel this is a really strong argument to make but don't copy and paste replies in a thread like that, it's spamming the thread.

At least I have an argument, you have none but complaining.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#102

Post by TMWNN »

Cyberdog wrote: post #64
zaroth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it’s feasible . It’s just marginally more expensive. A combination of tighter labor, environment, and safety regulations, and a higher cost of living. The tariffs are exactly what will spur the investment in US manufacturing, and the marginal benefit of manufacturing in China and then shipping the end product halfway around the world eroded away.

For certain definitions of “marginally,” I suppose. And keep in mind many of the more complex things manufactured in China are done so from components themselves manufactured in China or elsewhere in east Asia, so either those would also have to be manufactured here, or they’d have to be imported, and we’re back where we started. And so on all the way down to the raw materials.

>For certain definitions of “marginally,” I suppose.

The choice isn't just "manufacture in China" or "manufacture in the US". According to Peter Zeihan's The Accidental Superpower (2014), manufacturing in China has gone from being one quarter as expensive as in Mexico to 25% more expensive. He expects that the US shale and natural gas boom will further reduce costs in Mexico and the US.

Also see "[Why China should follow Trump’s example and cut taxes](http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2056874/why-ch.... Quote: "As far as manufacturing is concerned, according to Cao, everything is cheaper in America apart from manpower."

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#103

Post by bediger4000 »

mindthegap wrote: post #5

> “Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China, including bringing your companies HOME and making your products in the USA.” What a weird tone. Is that a thing in the US? Can the president (legally) order companies "home"? Doesn't sound like "land of the free" to me.

I agree with you on the weird tone issue. It very much reminds me of proclamations (usually Facebook, but going back to Usenet) made by folks widely regarded as not all present. The random all-caps words are part of it, as is the word "hereby".

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#104

Post by openasocket »

coliveira wrote: post #50
openasocket wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not a thing. Generally speaking, the president can't do much here besides ask companies to do this. There might be some ways he could force companies to no longer do business with China, like declare sanctions against China, but they would be on shaky legal grounds. And by shaky legal grounds, I mean guaranteed to be challenged in court and go all the way to the Supreme Court.

> can't do much here besides ask companies to do this Incorrect, the president controls the defense apparatus, which can label any country they wish a "threat to national security", which according to laws enacted since 9/11 can prevent American companies to do business with other countries. In the post 9/11, trumpian world, economic freedom depends on the mood of the president.

In my next sentence I mention that he could declare sanctions, with the caveat that it would be on pretty shaky legal grounds.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#105

Post by krapp »

coliveira wrote: post #101
krapp wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you feel this is a really strong argument to make but don't copy and paste replies in a thread like that, it's spamming the thread.

At least I have an argument, you have none but complaining.

Alright, you want an argument?

Just because the President has certain powers, doesn't mean he will be allowed to abuse those powers and remain unchecked.

If Trump tried to force all American companies to stop doing business in China by declaring China a "national security threat," his efforts would be immediately met with a challenge from the courts and he would very likely be impeached or removed from office. What would not happen is the rest of the government simply throwing up their hands because "the president controls the defense apparatus."

If it really worked that way, Trump would already have declared Mexico a national security threat, forced the government to fully fund the wall, seized all necessary lands via eminent domain and started building it by now.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#106

Post by Cyberdog »

TMWNN wrote: post #102
Cyberdog wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For certain definitions of “marginally,” I suppose. And keep in mind many of the more complex things manufactured in China are done so from components themselves manufactured in China or elsewhere in east Asia, so either those would also have to be manufactured here, or they’d have to be imported, and we’re back where we started. And so on all the way down to the raw materials.

>For certain definitions of “marginally,” I suppose. The choice isn't just "manufacture in China" or "manufacture in the US". According to Peter Zeihan's The Accidental Superpower (2014), manufacturing in China has gone from being one quarter as expensive as in Mexico to 25% more expensive. He expects that the US shale and natural gas boom will further reduce costs in Mexico and the US. Also see "[Why China should fo…

> The choice isn't just "manufacture in China" or "manufacture in the US".

Well, yeah. But the problem is that China has such a huge head start in all this that all the stuff I said about moving manufacturing to America would apply to Mexico too in terms of having to import components and/or raw materials from China, at least at first.

That said, in terms of national security concerns and such, yes, it would be in America's interest for Mexico to be a manufacturing powerhouse at or near China's level, and I'm sure Trump and his fans would appreciate that a booming Mexico would probably mean less illegal immigration to the US.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#107

Post by coliveira »

krapp wrote: post #105
coliveira wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least I have an argument, you have none but complaining.

Alright, you want an argument? Just because the President has certain powers, doesn't mean he will be allowed to abuse those powers and remain unchecked. If Trump tried to force all American companies to stop doing business in China by declaring China a "national security threat," his efforts would be immediately met with a challenge from the courts and he would very likely be impeached or removed from office. What w…

It works so well that Trump is maintaining concentration camps where children are physically abused. And his appointments in the supreme court are letting him bypass congress and build a useless wall with money diverted from the military. If you think that this is normal, then you're part of the problem.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#108

Post by coliveira »

tathougies wrote: post #86
coliveira wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not "absolute protection". American companies import much more than they export, so if he can't do whatever he wants to imports, there is no economic freedom.

There is no economic freedom when it comes to import. That's a founding principle of the country that no one should be surprised by.

Funny that Americans indoctrinated the entire world into thinking that import barriers were not civilized. And then now we discover that this is in fact a "founding principle"... right at the moment when the country cannot keep up with the competition. How convenient.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#109

Post by archagon »

umvi wrote: post #3

It's hard to just pick up and switch when you are so entrenched. That said, I would love if more US companies built stuff here in the US. Yeah, prices might be a little higher, but at least we aren't exploiting the labor of vulnerable people in foreign countries anymore.

Not to pick on you, but: the fact that people here are discussing Trump's insane drivel as if it were a sensible policy proposal with pros and cons to debate is highly disturbing to me. I can almost see the Overton window inching rightwards in real time.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#110

Post by tathougies »

coliveira wrote: post #108
tathougies wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no economic freedom when it comes to import. That's a founding principle of the country that no one should be surprised by.

Funny that Americans indoctrinated the entire world into thinking that import barriers were not civilized. And then now we discover that this is in fact a "founding principle"... right at the moment when the country cannot keep up with the competition. How convenient.

We didn't 'discover' it. America's constitution is one of the shortest in the world and written in very clear language. The text is available for free around the world. Being ignorant of its contents is completely 100% on you.
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