A person has died from a vaping-related condition • Hacker News Board

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#21

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:12 AM UTC

macintux wrote: post #18

dmix wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A whole lot of society and social policy is about lesser of evils. It's about being realistic and practical. Which is something far more policy should be conscious of, instead of some idealistic perfect world you wish to impose on other people. Not to mention people could just as quickly harm themselves going to a 7/11 every day to eat carbs or driving a motorcycle or drinking alcohol or engaging in 'extreme' sports.…

It certainly seems like the vape industry set back social progress on this front significantly. Cigarettes stopped being cool quite a while ago, and smoking is almost never allowed indoors anymore, but hey, look these e-cigarettes are safe and trendy and all the cool kids are doing them.

Social progress is prohibition or freedom of choice?

What's the harm?

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#22

Post by refurb » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:20 AM UTC

floatingatoll wrote: post #13

buildzr wrote: post #5

> As the mechanism is unknown, it’s unclear what the actual danger is. Is it some byproduct of the nicotine cartidges, or THC ones? Is it the vapor itself? Is it only at certain temperatures or concentrations? Is it directly affecting the lungs or entering the bloodstream? No one knows yet — all they’ve seen is an sudden uptick in respiratory or pulmonary issues where the sufferer also uses vaping products. We've see…

Another vector of harm to consider — Keep in mind that “vapor” is used to disguise that, in all cases whether nicotine or pot or etc, people are heating up a substance to its smoke point and inhaling that smoke. They use “vapor” because it sounds like “water vapor” - which is harmless - but it’s definitely not that. Marijuana cartridges use marijuana oil or MCT oil as a base, for example. Nicotine uses glycol or othe…

My understanding is that unless the vape pen is malfunctioning, it should be burning anything.

Your heating it to the point it boils and creates vapor. Not to point it burns.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#23

Post by bsder » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #3

It's waaaaaaaayyyyy early to blame this on "vape lung". Always be skeptical of people who have an agenda to eliminate something.

The fact that the CDC is involved means this is beyond a simple agenda.

There is something going on. It may even turn out to be unrelated to vaping.

However, incidents like these are why the CDC exists.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#24

Post by refurb » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

jahewson wrote: post #11

stjohnswarts wrote: post #3

It's waaaaaaaayyyyy early to blame this on "vape lung". Always be skeptical of people who have an agenda to eliminate something.

Some skeptic’s questions: 1) which people? 2) what agenda?

People who believe anything that looks like smoking should be banned.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#25

Post by refurb » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:24 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #2

Meh. Even if they kill 100,000 Americans per year, that would probably be one of the greatest public health wins in history.

This is true. Our starting point isn’t zero deaths, it’s the hundreds of thousands of people in the US who die due to smoking tobacco.

If you cut that in half, that’s a win.

This is what harm reduction is all about.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#26

Post by bsder » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:25 AM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #19

stjohnswarts wrote: post #3

It's waaaaaaaayyyyy early to blame this on "vape lung". Always be skeptical of people who have an agenda to eliminate something.

Completely agree. The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients -- yet it has been flogged by the media and prohibitionists as proof that vaping is just as dangerous as tobacco. I, for one, embrace vapetopia -- the cognitive libertarian's dream of mental states on demand.

> The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients

The fact that California is also seeing incidents would seem to argue against this at least somewhat.

It's certainly possible for this to be bad ingredients, but most of the cannabis-based stuff is mostly legal in California, so there's a decent negative feedback loop if you supply people with garbage.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#27

Post by beardedman » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:30 AM UTC

So I've been saying something like this for years now. HOW do we know something is not going wrong without any long term/clinical data (ESPECIALLY around these custom flavours that people sometimes roll out themselves)?

I think it's completely presumptuous when people tout vaping as being much safer than cigarettes. We didn't all wake up one day knowing smoking was bad - it was a long road filled with politics, science and data.

Vaping is in its infancy and already people's mantras sound like old Camel commercials.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#28

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:41 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #7

sk5t wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And suppose it's 1 million lives per year after a 10-year ramp-up period?

Why would there be a "ramp up" period. The number of vapes is going up rapidly, but the death rate would likely stay the same unless someone started suddenly spiking the vape liquid with lead or something. If anything it would go down as the possible culprits causing deaths are discovered and eliminated.

[deleted]

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#29

Post by james_s_tayler » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:41 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #3

It's waaaaaaaayyyyy early to blame this on "vape lung". Always be skeptical of people who have an agenda to eliminate something.

Radium. Cigarettes. Asbestos.

We've seen it plenty of times when a product comes out and people with an agenda to make money off it say "buy this, it works" and then decades later it is discovered to have been toxic or harmful in some way.

Especially given the nature of this product, skepticism should be the default position.

Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition

#30

Post by decebalus1 » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:45 AM UTC

beardedman wrote: post #27

So I've been saying something like this for years now. HOW do we know something is not going wrong without any long term/clinical data (ESPECIALLY around these custom flavours that people sometimes roll out themselves)? I think it's completely presumptuous when people tout vaping as being much safer than cigarettes. We didn't all wake up one day knowing smoking was bad - it was a long road filled with politics, scien…

> Vaping is in its infancy and already people's mantras sound like old Camel commercials.

I agree. I'm one of the people who managed to quit smoking using vaping and at one point I had some sort of awakening. After vaping for a couple of years I stopped and asked myself what the hell am I doing? I had countless mods, juices, RDAs, RTAs, etc.. and was a frequent contributor to the electronic_cigarette subreddit. I replaced a vice (I hated) with a hobby and was part of a cult (1). But at least I knew I was taking full responsibility for it. I knew the wattages, coil materials and what went into my juice. Most people buying stuff from gas stations or shady online retailers don't always know what they're doing (see for example the battery venting incidents).

And I stopped. I got rid of everything, vaped only unflavored juice for a while and quit altogether. After a couple of years, I ended up on the electronic_cigarette subreddit again and I was legitimately scared of what I was reading. It's a bubble. 'big tobacco' conspiracies, all doctors advising people to stop vaping are quacks, downplaying all sorts of issues (batteries venting due to shady mod soldering, hardware from China advertised as stainless steel which rusts, silica coils etc..). And nothing would change their minds. Even online vendors have these big-ass disclaimers that they won't take any responsibility for the health effects of their products but that too is classified as a plain old 'CYA' policy so you know.. nothing to worry about. Also, now they're vaping nic salts? WTF is that?

In this particular case, my personal opinion is that was definitely something seriously bad in the juice these people were vaping so I wouldn't panic just yet. Contrary to popular belief, I still believe that the CDC will get the job done and figure out the root cause. It reminds me of the time people started smoking bath salts and ended up in the ER where doctors initially didn't know what to make of it.

But I wouldn't bet any money that in a couple of years we won't find some weird/horrible side effect of vaping which appears only after prolonged use. Let's not forget that people did not get sick from cigarettes instantly...

(1) Small cult checklist:

- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its ideology

- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished

- The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself

- The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality (see analog smokers)

- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members (converting friends/family with starter kits)