It's waaaaaaaayyyyy early to blame this on "vape lung". Always be skeptical of people who have an agenda to eliminate something.
Some skeptic’s questions:
1) which people? 2) what agenda?
A person has died from a vaping-related condition
11–20 of 174 posts
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's pretty unlikely.
Okay, but is it impossible? Millions of people saturating their lungs with largely unstudied vapors from a variety of devices...
Almost all chemicals we use are largely unstudied for their long term effects. So far we were relatively lucky.
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#13> As the mechanism is unknown, it’s unclear what the actual danger is. Is it some byproduct of the nicotine cartidges, or THC ones? Is it the vapor itself? Is it only at certain temperatures or concentrations? Is it directly affecting the lungs or entering the bloodstream? No one knows yet — all they’ve seen is an sudden uptick in respiratory or pulmonary issues where the sufferer also uses vaping products. We've see…
Another vector of harm to consider —
Keep in mind that “vapor” is used to disguise that, in all cases whether nicotine or pot or etc, people are heating up a substance to its smoke point and inhaling that smoke. They use “vapor” because it sounds like “water vapor” - which is harmless - but it’s definitely not that.
Marijuana cartridges use marijuana oil or MCT oil as a base, for example. Nicotine uses glycol or other substances.
We have very little data on consuming glycol and/or MCT oil smoke. It’s possible that it clogs up the lungs in a way that takes hours to heal per inhalation, and so we’re simply seeing smoke inhalation deaths as we would from an oil factory burning for weeks or something.
(We have limited data on marijuana extract smoke - cold-processed oil is a new-ish innovation, compared to resin which is high in impurities and not easy to consume in significant quantities like marijuana oil apparently is.)
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#14I'm guessing that if this really is associated with vaping then it's likely due to the limited regulation of the ingredients. Bad batch of VG/PG/nicotine? Some problematic flavouring?
I think the best article I've found is at the BMJ: https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5228 - sorry, paywall. Very much inconslusive at the moment completely in the public health triage stage.
Good idea to regulate it properly. I just stopped vaping after a 20 year intermittent tobacco problem + 5 years of vaping[1]. Stopping vaping is massively easier than giving up cigarettes in my experience.
[1] for almost that entire time I just went unflavoured. Less hassle and less potential for contaminants.
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
And suppose it's 1 million lives per year after a 10-year ramp-up period?
Just like smoking it's important that those 10yrs have context around the deaths, assuming they ramp up, it's not just all vape usage = high risk. It's how you use it too. I personally quit smoking cigarettes and moved from 24mg->3mg of nicotine over a few months (with zero withdrawl symptoms). 3mg is about as low as you can go. You can't do that with smoking cigarettes, "light" cigarettes is mostly just a flavour pr…
It’s hard to get enthusiastic about something deadly and noxious just because it’s less noxious than something truly awful.
Walking behind someone who was vaping recently is one of the least pleasant experiences I’ve had for a while.
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#16> As the mechanism is unknown, it’s unclear what the actual danger is. Is it some byproduct of the nicotine cartidges, or THC ones? Is it the vapor itself? Is it only at certain temperatures or concentrations? Is it directly affecting the lungs or entering the bloodstream? No one knows yet — all they’ve seen is an sudden uptick in respiratory or pulmonary issues where the sufferer also uses vaping products. We've see…
Another vector of harm to consider — Keep in mind that “vapor” is used to disguise that, in all cases whether nicotine or pot or etc, people are heating up a substance to its smoke point and inhaling that smoke. They use “vapor” because it sounds like “water vapor” - which is harmless - but it’s definitely not that. Marijuana cartridges use marijuana oil or MCT oil as a base, for example. Nicotine uses glycol or othe…
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Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just like smoking it's important that those 10yrs have context around the deaths, assuming they ramp up, it's not just all vape usage = high risk. It's how you use it too. I personally quit smoking cigarettes and moved from 24mg->3mg of nicotine over a few months (with zero withdrawl symptoms). 3mg is about as low as you can go. You can't do that with smoking cigarettes, "light" cigarettes is mostly just a flavour pr…
It’s hard to get enthusiastic about something deadly and noxious just because it’s less noxious than something truly awful. Walking behind someone who was vaping recently is one of the least pleasant experiences I’ve had for a while.
A whole lot of society and social policy is about lesser of evils. It's about being realistic and practical. Which is something far more policy should be conscious of, instead of some idealistic perfect world you wish to impose on other people.
Not to mention people could just as quickly harm themselves going to a 7/11 every day to eat carbs or driving a motorcycle or drinking alcohol or engaging in 'extreme' sports. But we people do those things anyway even though there's plenty of science to show it's dumb.
Especially if those 'evils' are a) entirely non-violent and voluntary only affecting the individual and b) are not going away ala drugs and the giant shift towards harm reduction.
People seem to be mixing up the growing pains of a extremely fast-growing new industry and the long-term realities once the legal, health, business, and administrative systems mature and adapt. The rush to immediately ban everything, well before we fully understand it and/or have experimented with less freedom/fun-destroying strategies, while also accurate measures of usage and risk, doesn't help anyone.
I will admit though, the 'think of the kids' people are making quite an effective stir.
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s hard to get enthusiastic about something deadly and noxious just because it’s less noxious than something truly awful. Walking behind someone who was vaping recently is one of the least pleasant experiences I’ve had for a while.
A whole lot of society and social policy is about lesser of evils. It's about being realistic and practical. Which is something far more policy should be conscious of, instead of some idealistic perfect world you wish to impose on other people. Not to mention people could just as quickly harm themselves going to a 7/11 every day to eat carbs or driving a motorcycle or drinking alcohol or engaging in 'extreme' sports.…
It certainly seems like the vape industry set back social progress on this front significantly. Cigarettes stopped being cool quite a while ago, and smoking is almost never allowed indoors anymore, but hey, look these e-cigarettes are safe and trendy and all the cool kids are doing them.
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#19It's waaaaaaaayyyyy early to blame this on "vape lung". Always be skeptical of people who have an agenda to eliminate something.
Completely agree. The case was clearly a result of bad ingredients -- yet it has been flogged by the media and prohibitionists as proof that vaping is just as dangerous as tobacco.
I, for one, embrace vapetopia -- the cognitive libertarian's dream of mental states on demand.
Re: A person has died from a vaping-related condition
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s hard to get enthusiastic about something deadly and noxious just because it’s less noxious than something truly awful. Walking behind someone who was vaping recently is one of the least pleasant experiences I’ve had for a while.
A whole lot of society and social policy is about lesser of evils. It's about being realistic and practical. Which is something far more policy should be conscious of, instead of some idealistic perfect world you wish to impose on other people. Not to mention people could just as quickly harm themselves going to a 7/11 every day to eat carbs or driving a motorcycle or drinking alcohol or engaging in 'extreme' sports.…
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