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In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

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Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#421

Post by hash872 »

loeg wrote: post #415
hash872 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I've read it and am familiar with their argument, I just disagree. I don't think analyzing gun laws on a city by city basis makes a lot of sense, they're small, in high demand apparently, and easily smuggled from a more permissive locale. The abortion argument is just a pathway to IQ/some people are genetically more predisposed to being dumb & violent, etc. It's just a step on the way there. I hardly think I have…

> Oh I've read it and am familiar with their argument You do not seem to be familiar with the their conclusions and sentiments, no. > The abortion argument is just a pathway to IQ/some people are genetically more predisposed to being dumb & violent, etc. It's just a step on the way there. I hardly think I have to spell out what's the next step on the road after that. Open white supremacists like Steve Sailer vocally…

I just skimmed the chapter again to refresh my memory. It has a clear 'THOSE people [lower income, lower IQ] having abortions reduced the crime rate' angle. I'm sure they may have said something different after the fact, to not appear pro-eugenics (they likely didn't know how popular their book would be when they were writing it!). I invite anyone who disagrees to simply read the source material themselves.

Anyways, seeing as not only do social scientists widely disagree with their hypothesis, but other researchers found flaws in their data sets that Leavitt & Donohue were forced to acknowledge & correct for- it seems irrelevant?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#422

Post by wbronitsky »

rdtwo wrote: post #398
munificent wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, burning down a forest, defacing a public work of art, building a personal home in the middle of a public park, and dynamite fishing a coral reef are not "actual crimes" either. A good definition of "crime" needs to be able to include action that indirectly harm a large number of potential people. Otherwise, you are powerless to address the tragedy of the commons.

In Seattle if those were performed by a drug user they wouldn’t be.

This implies that you have data around if drug users and non-drug users who commit crimes are punished differently, or that you are just flippantly responding to a well thought out comment. In the spirit of HN, I'll assume it is the former. Can you show that data?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#423

Post by exolymph »

thomasmeeks wrote: post #315
fwip wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Seattle and take the bus to work downtown every day. I think I've seen, maybe three needles in five years.

I've lived in Seattle for 1.5 years. I became numb to the hyperbole around the homeless problem here in 6 months. One side is talking facts, experimentation, and trying new things. The other side is talking feelings, fears, and taking every misstep as an opportunity to abandon any notion of solving the problem in an ethical way. It is really interesting, especially on a site like HN, because the latter is directly co…

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#424

Post by tkxxx7 »

rayiner wrote: post #370
anaisbetts wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day though, the people breaking into cars are usually doing so because they have no other reasonable means to sustain themselves, or they are compelled to do so because of drug addiction. The long-term _solution_, is to remove these obstacles . In other words, middle-class employed people who are safe in their environment don't really commit crimes - why would they? The best way to solve crime In Ge…

If economics were the main driver, you'd see a strong correlation between crime rates and the economy. But by and large you do not: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUndersta... . > Based on these estimates, the observed 2 percentage point decline in the U.S unemployment rate between 1991 and 2001 can explain an estimated 2 percent decline in property crime (out of an observed drop of almost 30 perc…

> a decade of strong economic growth

This seems impossible to solve without considering which people were actually experiencing this growth.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#425

Post by wbronitsky »

pnw_hazor wrote: post #277
throwaway827364 wrote: post #27

This article is disingenuous at best. I don’t support the war on drugs, but Seattle’s handling of the situation isn’t close to a model for other cities. As someone who lived here all my life, it’s been a complete disaster. I’m frankly really disappointed in the NYTimes for publishing this garbage. He doesn’t go into the negatives of what the policies in Seattle has done to the city until so far later in the article.…

This morning I saw camper along I-5 with a generator. I wonder if he was a drug dealer, fence, or pimp. He had a nice setup.

Why can't this person be a serice worker, a gig worker or a white collar worker? What about living in a camper with a generator tells you this person is "a drug dealer, fence or pimp"? Are there not other explanations other than labeling this person/these people as groups you do not like?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#426

Post by memmcgee »

drak0n1c wrote: post #418
tjr225 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such thing was done. You can find instances of awful stuff happening in any city- anywhere in the world. This is exactly what makes statistics useful.

Statistics can be misleading. The vast majority of incidents aren't reported, and if they are filed they are filed under generic labels.

But anecdotes can be misleading too. The only thing left then is ideology.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#427

Post by pnw_hazor »

wbronitsky wrote: post #425
pnw_hazor wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This morning I saw camper along I-5 with a generator. I wonder if he was a drug dealer, fence, or pimp. He had a nice setup.

Why can't this person be a serice worker, a gig worker or a white collar worker? What about living in a camper with a generator tells you this person is "a drug dealer, fence or pimp"? Are there not other explanations other than labeling this person/these people as groups you do not like?

Since his camp was isolated (not in a tent city) I figured he would have to stick around all day to prevent the theft of things like his generator. Or, maybe homeless don't steal from each other?

Also, I guess he could be a remote SWE for google or something like that.

But you are right, I am making an assumption.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#428

Post by rtkwe »

rayiner wrote: post #370
anaisbetts wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day though, the people breaking into cars are usually doing so because they have no other reasonable means to sustain themselves, or they are compelled to do so because of drug addiction. The long-term _solution_, is to remove these obstacles . In other words, middle-class employed people who are safe in their environment don't really commit crimes - why would they? The best way to solve crime In Ge…

If economics were the main driver, you'd see a strong correlation between crime rates and the economy. But by and large you do not: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUndersta... . > Based on these estimates, the observed 2 percentage point decline in the U.S unemployment rate between 1991 and 2001 can explain an estimated 2 percent decline in property crime (out of an observed drop of almost 30 perc…

I'm not terribly surprised macro economic number don't show a strong correlation to crime. We're already talking about a group on the margins generally when we're looking at small property crimes and top line numbers like unemployment don't capture people who aren't even looking for work anymore (eg drug addicts).

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#429

Post by [deleted] »

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

[deleted]

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#430

Post by rayiner »

tkxxx7 wrote: post #424
rayiner wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If economics were the main driver, you'd see a strong correlation between crime rates and the economy. But by and large you do not: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUndersta... . > Based on these estimates, the observed 2 percentage point decline in the U.S unemployment rate between 1991 and 2001 can explain an estimated 2 percent decline in property crime (out of an observed drop of almost 30 perc…

> a decade of strong economic growth This seems impossible to solve without considering which people were actually experiencing this growth.

Hence the statistics I presented below that, showing that the poverty rate went down dramatically over that period.
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