Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because vaccines are not always good for individuals and government are conditioned to not admit this or keep it as quiet as possible. My daughter had complications 10 days after her MMR in the UK. She had episodes of going floppy and eyes rolling back in her head while making strange mewing sounds. 10 days is around the time that the measles component…
Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because vaccines are not always good for individuals Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because some vaccines are not always good for individuals, however the MMR vaccine has been found completly safe.
The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
71–80 of 83 posts
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's pretty evident the scientific establishment isn't perfect and thus has differences of opinion, and you make a good point about lack of openness. But the pertinent facts are that the majority of medical professionals and the NHS that paid for the treatments stood behind the drug companies' testing and the vaccination's safety record whilst the angry parents' law firm, their outspoken shill medic and the m…
"media coverage encouraged large segments of the British public to wrongly challenge the balance of medical opinion." This study came out in 1998, and the media coverage didn't peak until late 2005. The vast majority of those in the anti-vaccine movement had never even read the original article, and only gave it credence because of the lack of transparency. In between when the study was released and when the media hy…
But I'm finding it hard to see an argument in your post against the original point that people without medical backgrounds really shouldn't be making medical judgements. Especially if they consider the views of medical professionals and the NHS less pertinent to their kid's health than knee-jerk distrust in anything government-approved provoked by entirely irrelevant military intelligence scandals...
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
A sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person should be able to, with enough consideration, make up his mind about just about anything that lives in a knowledge domain. It's not like the medical profession emerged fully-formed from the head of Zeus.
Any sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person could decide for themselves if gravity exists, It's not like our understanding of physics emerged fully-formed from the head of Zeus. Any sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person wouldn't be questioning the established medical fact that vaccines provide an overwhelming net benefit. If they are, they almost certainly are not qualified to make an educated decisio…
The problem with your position is that people still die from taking medication. Low statistical significance of harm doesn't matter to you if you're one of the statistically few that ends up harmed.
Statistics are valid over populations. Yes, if one looks simply at the greater good then vaccination to prevent epidemic is a good idea. However imagine a scenario where everyone else is vaccinated but you aren't - you're not exposed to the pathogen as the disease doesn't spread nor exposed to the risk of the vaccine, you win. This is of course not a scalable response.
Disease control requires those involved to consider the population and not the individual it would be beneficial to this end to pretend the vaccine is perfect and incapable of harm, this produces the best results for the whole population.
Looking further, you rightly say "vaccines" provide a net benefit. Of course one is being vaccinated with a particular vaccine which, by the nature of vaccines may not have been tested beyond cursory short term tests. We can't wait 5 years for the results of double blind experiments on a vaccine when it's been rushed in to mass production to match a particular strain of pathogen. Yes the variations may be small but small variations matter.
>It's fine and dandy to play expert without a formal education in almost every situation, but in this case the lives of people, _and not just your own children_ is in play.
Driving in the snow, say, would you do it without a formal education?
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly the point the doctors used (without the statistics). Sure, it could have been coincidence but why say there was no chance it was a side effect? In fact, since her symptoms are a known side effect it is more likely it was not just a coincidence, not so?
As another person pointed out, "adverse events in the PDR or on product packaging are simply a list of all reported adverse events, with little data to demonstrate causality."[1] It is not implausible that the same symptom occurred in another person the vaccine was tested on while being entirely unrelated to the vaccine. If you throw away statistics - say that while it could be correlation it is much more likely to b…
Which country is this in?
I don't really buy that the pharma corps would print a huge list of negative side-effects without any causality demonstrated unless of course it's to hide the known side-effects by making it all appear absurd ...?
Is it encouraging to know that the reported negative side-effects weren't even investigated enough to establish if they were likely to be caused by the drugs taken? My instinct is that this is a very bad thing.
If this is true they're basically saying we get lots of reports from patients who've taken this and get side-effects that they report and that medical professionals then collate and report to us but we can't be bothered to look and see if there's any credence to those reports.
Something seems wrong here.
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please justify that comment, references?
tokenadult is probably referring to the BMJ article at http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full , which finds that at least four of the children in Wakefield’s study were referred to him by JABS activists.
I'm surprised by the poor reporting in the start of the article, I expected careful balance and avoidance of sensationalism.
Three examples - reporting on the paper published in the Lancet 28 Feb 1998:
>“Onset of behavioural symptoms was associated by the parents with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children,” began the paper’s “findings.” Adopting these claims as fact,4 its “results” section added: “In these eight children the average interval from exposure to first behavioural symptoms was 6.3 days (range 1-14).”
I've not read the whole paper but there's nothing wrong with this is there? Adopting a claim that "parents associated [...]" as fact isn't wrong, or at least not provably by us. The association is apparently wrong but that doesn't speak to this result. The later result is not surprising as they would have been seeking incidences where there was a temporal association. I'm assuming that the paper didn't actually say there was an association (just a reported one) otherwise this article would have quoted that surely.
Two, the author questions how they would have had sight of the result before conducting the study. Fraud is possible, like Hubble's constant. But "knowing" the result is commonplace isn't it. One has a theory that one believes in enough to test, "this must be it, I think I'm really on to something".
Last is the questioning of the case histories, after talking to Mrs2:
>The next day, she complained to my editors. She said my methods “seemed more akin to the gutter press.” But I was perplexed by her story, since there was no case in the Lancet that matched her careful account.
Basically the author of the article is doing what has been so decried in comments here, they are trusting the (at least 5 year old) recollection of a layman vs the records of medical practitioners at the time. There is certainly more than one conclusion that fits including the possibility that Mrs2 gave a misreport to either the original study or Mr Deer. He also calls her account careful, but he describes her not remembering when the symptoms appeared being badgered into an answer.
Thankfully the article greatly improves as it goes on.
Parting shot:
>he and Barr explained in a confidential grant application to the UK government’s Legal Aid Board
Confidentiality isn't what it used to be!
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please justify that comment, references?
Have you read the British Medical Journal article, just published, that has prompted several of these threads on HN? http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/study-that-triggered-... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/andre-picard/medi... http://consumerist.com/2011/01/study-linking-vaccines-to-aut...
Or did I miss something?
Even if JABS commissioned the research unless they instructed that fraud should be carried out I don't see the harm they did?
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
As another person pointed out, "adverse events in the PDR or on product packaging are simply a list of all reported adverse events, with little data to demonstrate causality."[1] It is not implausible that the same symptom occurred in another person the vaccine was tested on while being entirely unrelated to the vaccine. If you throw away statistics - say that while it could be correlation it is much more likely to b…
>As another person pointed out, "adverse events in the PDR or on product packaging are simply a list of all reported adverse events, with little data to demonstrate causality." Which country is this in? I don't really buy that the pharma corps would print a huge list of negative side-effects without any causality demonstrated unless of course it's to hide the known side-effects by making it all appear absurd ...? Is…
Why not? It's likely a governmental requirement.
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's just not true. Is it necessary for me to say any more about this?
I dunno, it squares with my experience, at least until you reach a specialist. Admittedly this is anecdotal evidence, but ... I have diagnosed several medical issues with myself and my wife by web research, only to have to pay to go to a family doctor, who hems and haws, then gives a referral to a specialist, who agrees with what I have already stated. Specialists in my area will not take you in without a referral fr…
This is basically what you have to deal with with doctors. There are doctors who are very, very good and doctors who are just barely bright enough to continue to practice. The major problem is how you distinguish between the two or, in other terms, how do you find a good programmer if you don't really know anything about programming? Honestly, I don't have an easily cut-and-dried answer. I generally rely on my family (a large subset of my family are highly skilled physicians) to use their professional expertise and circles to find a very highly respected physician in the area. Similarly, I generally help in evaluating technical issues for them.
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not what you said at all. Here's what you said: Most doctors get their information about medical issues by reading the marketing pamphlets from drug companies. If you actually read the relevant journal articles then you'd be significantly more knowledgeable about any given topic than the average doctor.
The first statement is trivially provable by looking at how well the popularity of treatments correlates with corporate marketing budgets, e.g. the list on page 2 here: http://www.erowid.org/general/newsletter/erowid_newsletter18... Why would doctors be so eager to prescribe Lexapro as late as 2009 even though they knew that the manufacturer had faked the science behind it, for which it was later fined over 300 milli…
Heh OK why don't I make you a deal: you read this paper[1], tell me what it studies and what the consequences are, and then I'll forward your response to my father and he can tell you all the things you got wrong.
If there's one thing I've learned reading papers it's that the way the author phrases things or what the author conspicuously leaves out is worth just as much as what's there. Even in my domain area I'm nowhere near qualified to judge academic papers as an expert.
[1] http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/6/1203.abstract
Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
>As another person pointed out, "adverse events in the PDR or on product packaging are simply a list of all reported adverse events, with little data to demonstrate causality." Which country is this in? I don't really buy that the pharma corps would print a huge list of negative side-effects without any causality demonstrated unless of course it's to hide the known side-effects by making it all appear absurd ...? Is…
> I don't really buy that the pharma corps would print a huge list of negative side-effects without any causality demonstrated unless of course it's to hide the known side-effects by making it all appear absurd ...? Why not? It's likely a governmental requirement.
I guess I imagine that as in my country the pharmas managed to get a special extension to patent terms just for themselves and no other industry that they have enough sway with government to push it so they at least only publish proven side-effects.
Why would gov make this a requirement, that's part of my question?
This sounds like if someone gets run over wearing support stockings the support stockings have a document with them saying "may cause you to be hit by a car". This is strictly true but not helpful and the causal connection is decidedly tenuous.