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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#531

Post by tripzilch »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #504
nothis wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on the games being excellent examples of a super niche style done well but he's basically writing an article attacking the very concept of art direction as a waste of resources. That comes off a little disrespectful towards people who care. I think there's no point in making their games looking any different than they do (because it's part of their brand, now) but the correct response to a question of wh…

I think I interpreted the article differently from you. I saw this as a cold hard look at what works and the dangers of changing your brand (or rather, the fact that "better X" doesn't always mean more success when you're Forte is Y), not some general argument against the idea of artistic integrity. Doing what Vogel can now do after 20 years and an established audience would lead to ruin for 99.9% of devs today aimin…

Yes the business reasons were perfectly fine, and he didn't explicitly argue against artistic integrity, it's just that he didn't display any, while making arguments about artistic choices.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#532

Post by tripzilch »

sprafa wrote: post #465
nothis wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on the games being excellent examples of a super niche style done well but he's basically writing an article attacking the very concept of art direction as a waste of resources. That comes off a little disrespectful towards people who care. I think there's no point in making their games looking any different than they do (because it's part of their brand, now) but the correct response to a question of wh…

Disrespectful ? The dude says his games look like crap. He doesn’t say everyone else’s should. He’s explaining why it makes business sense for him to do so! This is business 101 from a sucessful indie game dev

He also says his games look like crap because that's how old games look to him. Yes he has business sense, he also has no taste.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#533

Post by tripzilch »

NoodleIncident wrote: post #488
ebg13 wrote: post #141

Oh man. This thread is really something else. Like...for miles in every direction, all I can see are pitchforks, and here I am standing alone on a small hill thinking to myself "Holy shit. That's the Spiderweb software guy. I've played every single one of his games, EVERY SINGLE ONE, and loved all of them." The graphics in the games are exactly as good as they need to be to make wonderful story-driven RPGs.

If he only was talking about his own art, then fewer people would be rubbed the wrong way. However, at regular intervals throughout this article, he feels the need to accuse his critics of also disliking other games with simple art. I think it's these quotes in particular that are the most pitchfork-worthy of the lot: - (Screenshot of Ultima V) - "This is what looks normal to me" - "Queen's Wish has a very retro squa…

> Even Ultima V shades one side of its walls, something none of his games have accomplished based on these screenshots.

It's the hundreds of tiny details like this, that make for great design and good art, regardless of how retro the medium is. That's what this guy seems to be utterly blind to, and it really rubs against people who DO like to spend the effort and time on such tiny details to get the design just right ... only for this guy to call it "looks good enough for me" and then imitate it badly.

Just stick to the business explanation, because there's nothing wrong with running a business on shitty art.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#534

Post by tripzilch »

eridius wrote: post #434
zapzupnz wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not my understanding that having a fond nostalgia for somebody's works excuses the article's salty tone that basically tells people they're wrong for thinking the games are ugly, coming up with all manner of excuses but never once embracing that the problem is entirely the developer's own and nobody else's; yes, that point is laid out there but it's given as an excuse, not as a justification. There's a fine line…

> unprompted The guy's been getting criticisms for 25 years. I think he's justified in writing a single blog post in defense of his art style. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

> I think he's justified in writing a single blog post in defense of his art style. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

I think he's justified in writing a blog post about his business decision and should have kept it at that.

But defending this as an "art style" is like making really shitty cheap knockoff "vintage style" furniture and claiming part of the reason is because you love the artistic style of historic wood working. No you do it for the money, and people who actually like vintage historic wood work might get annoyed that you are pushing your work as the same.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#535

Post by tripzilch »

sprafa wrote: post #469
ehsankia wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, when you write such an abrasive post, literally ending with "haters gonna hate" and basically implying that anyone who doesn't like the art is stupid, I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expect to get.

Don’t know what article you read. He said the art being shit makes business sense to him

Yeah in the second half, and that would have made a fine blog post. He also said a lot of other things, which didn't.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#537

Post by tripzilch »

sprafa wrote: post #511
ehsankia wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading this article, which one have you been reading? https://i.imgur.com/rZozQHD.png

I don’t understand how that implies people who dislike his art style to be stupid. I’d see the expression more as a reflection of “find your niche, ignore everyone else”

It's not. It's not an art style, it's the lack of one. And then he compares it to retro games with an actual art style and says this is "good enough for him". Calling it an art style is an affront to people who DO spend the time and effort on these things. So he explains it makes business sense for him to not care about art direction. Okay fine. But then don't drag other games into it.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#538

Post by tripzilch »

mcv wrote: post #147

Sometimes 'better-but-not-good-enough' is a trap. That's basically what Jeff Vogel is saying about moving up from his poor inconsistent art to slightly better art, but it's also how I feel about moving up from ascii characters to his style of "crappy" art. AdoM is a fantastic roguelike created by Thomas Biskup, which originally had you as an '@' battling other ascii characters. Later he wanted a nicer interface and w…

> By the way, Baba is You, referenced at the end, is an absolutely brilliant game, and while the art looks cheap like a toddler drew it

Actually it looks like an artist carefully imitating a child like style instead of saying "good enough". It's fine, good even. It looks simple, but it clearly actually is everything it needs to be.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#539

Post by tripzilch »

zimpenfish wrote: post #419
rubbingalcohol wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Undertale had really amateur art but it was cohesive and looked like someone actually cared about it, versus a bunch of parts-bin stock graphics some guy bought on discount. I don't doubt the guy is successful, but he doesn't really bring up a convincing argument for his position. He could be potentially be MORE successful if he invested a little more in visual aspects of his games. Reading an article about why it is…

> He could be potentially be MORE successful if he invested a little more in visual aspects of his games. Covered in the article (and previous blog posts, I think): I have had games where I worked very hard to improve the graphics, spending a lot of time and money, and they really did look better! But when I released those games, the vast majority of people who had said, "Your games look bad." STILL said, "Your games…

They really did look better, it's just that the vast majority of people didn't think so.

Sounds like someone who worked at all the wrong things to "improve" because they don't listen to feedback.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#540

Post by EpicEng »

JBSay wrote: post #521
EpicEng wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm not. In fact, that just supports my point; he doesn't want to spend much on design because it won't make him more money, but he wants "talented and dependable" designers. You know that old "pick two" saying? Also, something about cake comes to mind.

Something made of straws comes to mind.

Don't see why it would. Maybe I am reading too much into that one sentence, I don't know. The whole "talented... for a reasonable price" bit stuck with me though. If all of the talented people want a certain rate, then guess what? That's the market rate.
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