RIP Bill Zeller • Hacker News Board

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#71

Post by larrik » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 7:24 PM UTC

SkyMarshal wrote: post #69

brandnewlow wrote: post #37

This is a sad story. I am reminded of another Princeton suicide, Manzili Davis '06 drove to California during spring break of his senior year, rented a storage unit and took his life inside of it. It was weeks before he was found. http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S14/54/83M99/ We had mutual friends and I met him a few times. He had his own "darkness" just like Bill Zeller. I do wonder if places like Princet…

While Princeton may not quite have been sunny California, the banks of the Charles, or Manhattan's Upper West Side, at least you weren't in frozen, sunless, vitamin-D-less Ithaca, or downright dangerous New Haven. Count your blessings. :)

Seriously, the area around Yale is terrible.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#72

Post by chewedwire » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 7:42 PM UTC

Wow...I knew him at Princeton in a passing sense, we were in the same computer graphics class and he advised my group for another class. He was without a doubt a brilliant guy.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#73

Post by mcantor » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 7:46 PM UTC

beej71 wrote: post #6

Brutal! How can we help if we don't even know something's wrong? He was so afraid to let the secret out... maybe that needs to be made easier...? I have no idea--I can't even begin to empathize with how difficult that must have been to live with.

Sometimes there is just nothing you can do. Not because it's "predestined" or any of that sort of nonsense, but because there's simply nothing that will work. It doesn't matter how smart, strong or motivated you are; you'll never stop an avalanche with a shovel.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#74

Post by AgentConundrum » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 9:31 PM UTC

yogipatel wrote: post #49

xatax wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals I can relate to that part of the note. With one (minor?) exception, I've never seen a proper doctor about my issues, but I've been to a number of counselors over the years. Almost all of them have been completely useless to me, because I can clearly see that I'm not safe there. I think it's a bit like the situation Mr. Zeller…

My experience with counseling inclines me to say that you took fuck all out of the counseling, not the other way around. It sounds like your issue in high school wasn't just anger, it was anger that might hurt someone . That's a part of the problem that needs to be addressed, even if a counselor deems it necessary to report you. But — obviously nothing is that black and white, especially not after just a few sentence…

I didn't think there was imminent danger of hurting anyone, just that if I left it unchecked it could get to a stage where eventually I couldn't control it anymore. I was there seeking guidance on how to stop something from potentially becoming an issue, but I was always mindful that someone could see it as a more imminent threat than I believed it was, and would report me.

I have trust issues in addition to the anger issues (the anger issues are mostly controlled now, though the trust issues remain) and so I could never feel free to open up to a counselor because that would make me vulnerable. If you have a minor problem but opening up leaves you vulnerable to major complications, then you're understandably less likely to open up because the risk isn't worth the reward.

Counselors are a bit like HR. In theory, they can help you, but in practice they're often not worth the risk since putting anything into "official channels" makes everything formal and there are rigid procedures to follow. I'd rather talk to a friend than a counselor, just like it's often better to informally take problems up with your manager rather than reporting the issue to HR.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#75

Post by billjings » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 10:07 PM UTC

noname123 wrote: post #24

BigZaphod wrote: post #3

A note of caution: If you choose to read the actual suicide note as I did, be prepared for a rather intense emotional trip. I don't mean to say that to dissuade anyone from reading it, but just that... I was not expecting what I ended up reading and it really made me sit back and, I dunno, just be sad for awhile. Such a shame.

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most people are quite baffled by it because of the degree of author's rational explanations, extreme honesty and empathy for others in spite of his own pains. Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming which a lot of us could relate to, At times growin…

I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it...

---

There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage out of these arguments. Their ideas can have the force of fact, of truth itself.

We find what we look for. Even the arguments we make to ourselves have their stakes and motivations. Mr. Zeller's written a great defense here of the futility of his own existence. He was apparently a smart guy; had I been there myself, I doubt I'd have been able to refute him. However, that he wins the argument doesn't mean that what he believes is true. It doesn't mean that he gets to have me respect his decision.

This is a hard thing, and ever so important for people dealing with someone who is depressed to this degree. Depressed folks can be very sharp, so we shouldn't let this kind of logic take us in. There is something deep and fundamental about life or death that an argument cannot sway; if my friend just can't go on and I can't find a problem with their reasoning, that doesn't mean I have to respect their decision. I just haven't found why they are wrong yet.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#76

Post by philwelch » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 11:28 PM UTC

billjings wrote: post #75

noname123 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most people are quite baffled by it because of the degree of author's rational explanations, extreme honesty and empathy for others in spite of his own pains. Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming which a lot of us could relate to, At times growin…

I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it... --- There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage…

There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning here.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#77

Post by philwelch » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

davidhollander wrote: post #19

BigZaphod wrote: post #3

A note of caution: If you choose to read the actual suicide note as I did, be prepared for a rather intense emotional trip. I don't mean to say that to dissuade anyone from reading it, but just that... I was not expecting what I ended up reading and it really made me sit back and, I dunno, just be sad for awhile. Such a shame.

From reading the letter you can tell he was suffering extremely from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder throughout much of his life. I did not feel sad as much as disgusted that, through our politicians, we have: A) made illegal the most effective treatment for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder : MDMA B) continue to support the primary generator of new PTSD cases: war If you want to do something other than sit around feelin…

I did not feel sad as much as disgusted that, through our politicians, we have: A) made illegal the most effective treatment for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder : MDMA B) continue to support the primary generator of new PTSD cases: war

A) You're going to have to do better than The Times, MSNBC, and a pro-psychedelic-legalization think tank to say MDMA is the most effective treatment. I'm not closed-minded to the idea that psychedelic drugs have positive psychiatric applications or that they should be legalized, but there's a lot of literature about treatments overall, and you've offered no comparative studies measuring the difference between MDMA and, for instance, cognitive behavioral therapy.

B) The stereotypical PTSD case is a returning war veteran. If you hadn't noticed, though, wars also tend to kill people and destroy things, and the added weight of PTSD among veterans doesn't change the essential moral calculus that much. Participating in the Vietnam War wouldn't have become a good idea if it wasn't for PTSD, and participating in the Second World War doesn't become a bad idea just because of PTSD.

But there's also no quantification of whether warfare is indeed the primary generator of PTSD cases; it's hard to find reliable statistics about it, but I would bet that most PTSD sufferers in the US are victims of sexual abuse rather than war veterans, since it's probably far, far more common for an American to be raped or sexually assaulted than for an American to join the military, go overseas, and actually participate in combat. Of course, rape isn't something we talk about much.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#78

Post by billjings » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 12:13 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #76

billjings wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it... --- There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage…

There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning her…

It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential.

I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we value should not be given up easily, and that we should not be easily swayed by the death wish words of the departed who we so dearly miss, mourn, and respect.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#79

Post by zackattack » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 12:44 AM UTC

kingsley_20 wrote: post #36

zackattack wrote: post #31

This might be a good time to mention that we are looking for volunteers for http://CompassionPit.com/ . It was created by people who have struggled with depression for most of their life. The other day someone commented about it, "I used CompassionPit for the first time this week. I really like the idea of it. Reminds me of when I reached out to an online videogame friend when I was 12 years old when I was super depr…

Great idea. Would you consider changing the "pit" part of the name?

I would consider it but I am skeptical that it would be a worthwhile change. E.g. Something like "CompassionPlane" might promote more of a sense of equality but it also negates the dark truths that, if more readily confronted, would perhaps have helped certain people avoid the "pit" they are in. When you are feeling awful it does not help to pretend otherwise. You are truly feeling awful and not resisting it is the first step.

I welcome your thoughts

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#80

Post by philwelch » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 1:02 AM UTC

billjings wrote: post #78

philwelch wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning her…

It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential. I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we…

From the sounds of it, this guy did not give up his life "easily". I consider it a testament to human self-preservation that he survived this misery for so long.