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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#411

Post by kelnos »

cosarara wrote: post #246
eropple wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A proper art team is expensive, and he doesn't want to pay for it. Can't . The word you're looking for here is can't . The unit economics of making the sorts of games that JV makes completely preclude it. It would be way easier to spend the money he doesn't make to get better art talent. This is true. It is also not very meaningful. And it's not that there is minimal sense of direction just for funsies--it's that y…

Ok, can't. This doesn't change the rest of what I said, though: Have the freelance artist spend some time fixing up the tileset as a whole!

That costs extra money. If he were to do that, that money would come directly out of his ability to provide for his family. And he's not convinced that it would increase sales enough to make up for it. Maybe he's wrong, and it would, but at first blush I'd trust him to have the best instincts about his own business.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#412

Post by zimpenfish »

nemetroid wrote: post #391
skywhopper wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. The guy says he likes the style of his games, and that they make a profitable business for him. Why do you insist there's a "problem"? I thought this was a great article. Why do the games look "ugly"? Because 1) perfect graphics aren't even the point; and 2) this is a way to build a sustainable business. Your technical complaints about the art entirely miss the point. And I guarantee that there…

> What a weird comment. The guy says he likes the style of his games, and that they make a profitable business for him. Why do you insist there's a "problem"? The author believes there's a problem, or they wouldn't have written an article about it. I agree with the grandparent comment. The tone of the article isn't "yes, the graphics are bad but it's fine", it's "you just don't appreciate the style". The author lists…

> The author believes there's a problem, or they wouldn't have written an article about it.

I don't think he does[1] it's just that it comes up every time they release a game[2].

[1] https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-indie-games-can-... - specifically lauding "cheap" graphics.

[2] e.g. RPS interview from 2013 commenting on it: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/07/17/interview-jeff-v... ; IGN have been mentioning the "graphics from a decade ago" since 2007 ;

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#413

Post by ggggtez »

> That means we have to double our sales to make up for it.

I don't agree. You need enough money to pay an artist, but you don't need to give the artist a 50% cut of your studio!

Full Disclosure: I personally think the art is bad, but I see the retro appeal. The mismatching styles and low quality definitely is reminiscent of old D&D manuals which had monsters drawn by Gary Gygax himself... and which looked really bad too.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#414

Post by aresant »

An incredibly good point is made by a user on Twitter that I hope is taken to heart by Jeff.

A better quality visual experience could be delivered at near zero additional cost / complexity with basic technical hacks - eg faux shading / lighting - see the before / after below:

https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033

Feels like Jeff would benefit from a consultation with a technical art director or similar.

Every point he makes about economy, style, preference would still stand but could also address a considerable amount of the visual criticism (and hence, lost sales opportunities)

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#415

Post by airstrike »

magashna wrote: post #150
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

That era also had fantastic art in arcade games, so don't deny that things like Kim Kaphwan's pants exist https://www.resetera.com/threads/animation-excellence-a-eulo... I'd say today's pixel art generally doesn't hit the heights that it did in SF3 or some of the mid KoF games

That link (and the video in it) are so good you should submit it directly! Thanks!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#416

Post by zimpenfish »

eropple wrote: post #276
cosarara wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have numbers on the table, so we can't really talk about money. I am presenting what I think would be an efficient use of the money. Not paying a full time artist, not hiring an art director, just having someone with some sense of art fix up the whole asset directory a bit instead of simply asking people to do things generic like he says he does in the article. How much time will depend on the budget. This i…

I don't know JV's numbers, but I know mine and a high-quality visual artist who speaks fluent/first-language English and has the sort of willingness to play nice with others' art can be $50/hour. And for a game like these, you're talking quite a few hours, you know? You can go offshore for cheaper, but then you introduce risk, and if nothing else, JV's model is to minimize risk as much as is possible.

> I don't know JV's numbers

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-gam... covers "Geneforge 4: Rebellion" (tl;dr: average performer, $120k budget, almost in the black after 3 years.)

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#417

Post by 0xffff2 »

wolco wrote: post #360
nothis wrote: post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

I won't download a mobile game with too much art. Wastes spaces and usually causes the app to run slowly. I stopped downloading desktop games when they hit 3 gigs. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

In so far as there are very few things where anyone is the only one on a planet 8 billion people? sure, but you're probably pretty close.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#418

Post by arkades »

ebg13 wrote: post #141

Oh man. This thread is really something else. Like...for miles in every direction, all I can see are pitchforks, and here I am standing alone on a small hill thinking to myself "Holy shit. That's the Spiderweb software guy. I've played every single one of his games, EVERY SINGLE ONE, and loved all of them." The graphics in the games are exactly as good as they need to be to make wonderful story-driven RPGs.

Yes. I’m looking forward to that n-gate’s webshit weekly take on this.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#419

Post by zimpenfish »

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #377
vidarh wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For each Undertale, how many games do you think there are out there that look good that will never break even? There are two sides to this: Can you make better games for cheap? Sure you can, many people have. But the second question is: How large a proportion of those who try that would be able to keep churning out profitable games for 25 years? Or even produce a single profitable game? There's nothing mediocre about…

Undertale had really amateur art but it was cohesive and looked like someone actually cared about it, versus a bunch of parts-bin stock graphics some guy bought on discount. I don't doubt the guy is successful, but he doesn't really bring up a convincing argument for his position. He could be potentially be MORE successful if he invested a little more in visual aspects of his games. Reading an article about why it is…

> He could be potentially be MORE successful if he invested a little more in visual aspects of his games.

Covered in the article (and previous blog posts, I think): I have had games where I worked very hard to improve the graphics, spending a lot of time and money, and they really did look better! But when I released those games, the vast majority of people who had said, "Your games look bad." STILL said, "Your games look bad."

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#420

Post by jpindar »

eropple wrote: post #318
atoav wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overread the "necessarily" part of my quote. Good art can cost a ton and it does so for a reason. I (among other things) worked as a freelance designer, so I know. What I meant however is that depending on the genre you might find solutions that you can do yourself far easier with equally good (or better) results. You could work with one-color abstract shapes and give them a good feel by using the right d…

I didn't miss that "necessarily", I disregarded it as stakes-free theorycrafting. I know how much art costs and I know from personal experience how quickly art people flake if you aren't paying enough money to keep them in line. (Which is something people here take for granted amongst developers, but for some reason nobody else.) "Depending on the genre"--JV makes Ultima-alikes. So by this theorycrafting he should st…

How much does it cost to flip a sprite so the light in a scene is all coming from the same direction?
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