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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

groups.csail.mit.edu

441–450 of 523 posts

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your supply and demand explanation for the following norms? - It's considered professional for employees give their employers two weeks notice before leaving. It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. - It's considered unprofessional to talk about what you're getting paid. - It's considered normal for potential employers to do back…

> It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. Nope.

"Nope." is cute and shows you're cocksure about that. However, the reality is that this happens all the time and is never punished by culture as "unprofessional" for a corporation to do. Who would punish them? The customers?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue not only that early rising is totally unnatural but also that lying in bed half awake - sleep researchers call this state "hypnagogic" - is positively beneficial to health and happiness. A good morning doze of half an hour or more can, for example, help you to prepare mentally for the problems and tasks ahead. --The Virtue Of Idleness By Tom Hodgkinson

I wish I could wake up naturally, when I feel rested, but my 2 y.o. Won’t let me. Also, my wife is nuts and thinks it’s lazy to sleep past 7. I want to wake up at 9... but have to be up around 5:30-6 every day. Thing is, I’m self-employed and have nowhere to be, no one to answer to. What went wrong...

You married a morning person, and you need to buy blackout curtains for your kid and let them stay up as late as they like.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#443
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The process of making sure people aren't hurting others is called "government" and "regulation", which self-professed Libertarians appear to be against. They say things like "the FDA is stupid, the free market will sort it out" - when the FDA was created because the free market was killing people. Vis a vis classism, if you refuse to regulate and allow everyone to be "free to choose", you are essentially advocating a…

> which self-professed Libertarians appear to be against. That's conflating Anarchists with Libertarians. Libertarians are not Anarchists. Feudalism is something different altogether.

> Libertarians are not Anarchists.

Unless with "libertarians" you are referring to ancaps, this is just false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Rise_of_anarchi...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite subject. First, I'm not sure if you're aware, but the price of a procedure in the US is not necessarily related to its cost. There's been several news articles showing the same procedure can cost 100x more in one hospital vs the other in the same city. Hospitals literally pull prices out their ass and justify it by saying "no one pays that price". Then they bludgeon people with these completely fictitious…

I had a friend who had an appendix removed, the bill was $80K, similar to what you quoted. He didn't have insurance, however, so he haggled on the bill. Eventually they settled and accepted $8K, or 10% of the sticker price, for the procedure. I don't know how insurance companies settle these things behind the scenes, but I imagine many are overpaying and we're all paying the cost through higher insurance prices.

Insurance companies have zero incentive for real procedure prices to ever be listed; they provide 'value' both in terms of their negotiation services and in terms of pointing to how expensive getting anything done is.

However the true result is presented to wall street: If the insurance company is making more than a very meager profit we're getting screwed out of what should be universal affordable care.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#445
post #72

> One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. This myth is typically defended by a comparison of the modern forty-hour week with its seventy- or eighty-hour counterpart in the nineteenth century. The implicit -- but rarely articulated -- assumption is that the eighty-hour standard has prevailed for centuries. The comparison conjures up the dreary life of medieval peasants, toiling steadi…

All of what you said is why poverty is usally seen as a relative value — it is relative to the perceived average of the wealth of the society you live in. A society that continuosly sustains high degrees of poverty under that definition, usually needs a narrative for why the poor people deserve to be poor and why the rich people deserve to be rich. Centuries ago (depending on the place) this might have been still bee…

> This means also those who are billionaires must have worked very very hard and so deserve their wealth.

This is called the 'just world hypothesis' and is behind may of our victim blaming impulses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#446
post #437
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. Edgy. But also deeply ignorant of history. Servitude means you can't quit your job. That is a pretty significant modification!

A lot of people can't. They will literally not be able to pay bills.

Most people need a job. That's not the same as being unable to switch employers, or being unable to move to a better market.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#447

I have a hobby: when I meet Americans I'm starting to tell them how lazy we Europeans tackle working. I mean the work / life balance for us means nothing since we do life first then work. And I'm telling them another thing: for me it seems in America everybody is working. The president, the millionaire, the middle and lower classes. Nobody does the `healthy meaninglessness`. Of course all these are friendly provocati…

Yeah man, enterprises optimize to make as much money as possible with as little expenses as possible.

Why on earth is it that people aren't allowed to make the same optimization (greatest income with least effort) without being called lazy?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#448
post #335
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article isn't about office workers. It's about workers. Laborers are doing 8+ hour days, too, and they would not be equally productive in half the time. There's a reason it tends to pay by the hour. Let's compare apples to apples. Office jobs didn't exist in the medieval period, but labor jobs still exist today.

Cut the shifts in half and people work less individually while more people overall have job opportunities. As a benefit, working shorter shifts would result in more rested workers who would theoretically be more productive or at least have less chance of mistakes.

This would either halve incomes or double labor costs. Any improvements in individual productivity would be offset by the new logistical nightmare (especially for knowledge workers) of coordinating with twice as many team members to accomplish the same amount of work. This seems like a recipe for skyrocketing costs.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#449
post #425
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. Did you just make this up? The stigma is the exact opposite. Western society makes it quite difficult to fire employees. Hell, it's even illegal to fire striking employees. You'd be hard-pressed to find any employer willing to fire an employe…

You appear to live in quite the bubble if you really believe this with absolute certainty.

> Western society makes it quite difficult to fire employees.

Have you worked in a US "right-to-work" state? It's incredibly easy to fire people. Large companies are typically the only businesses that bother with "thoroughly documented evidence of the employee's malfeasance". And even that is rare.

> You'd be hard-pressed to find any employer willing to fire an employee without thoroughly documented evidence of the employee's malfeasance. The only time anybody gets fired is when they really really deserved it.

I'm just a single data point. I'm a bit of a workaholic. I'm also a perfectionist. And I'm someone who always busts his ass at every job. In the last 20 years in TN, I have encountered the following occasions:

- During college, I worked part-time at Books-a-Million in their little cafe. I had the laziest, most unreliable cafe "manager" I've ever met—she would regularly be 30+ minutes late to shifts, causing me to be late to classes and events; she would constantly offload managerial tasks to me when we shared a shift; she would spend vast majorities of her shifts talking on the phone with family and friends; she wouldn't respond to customers at the counter if I was busy (because she was on the phone), and would ignore them waiting for me to get to them; when I would follow her shifts, she never spent any time at all cleaning up after herself, and left the entire area a fucking mess; the list goes on. When Spring Break hit, I'd had a pre-approved vacation on the books for nearly 3 months—a road trip to Chicago with friends. My ride showed up 15 minutes before my shift ended and came in for a coffee to wait for me to be relieved by the manager. One hour later, I finally called the manager. She was at home watching TV (yes, she told me that directly). I asked if she was aware she was supposed to be relieving me so I could leave for vacation, and she said yes. I told her my ride had been waiting for over an hour by this point, and needed to leave because it was a long drive. She complained about having to work on a Saturday. Said she guessed she'd go get in the shower and start getting ready for work. I decided I'd had enough of this behavior after nearly 1 year—I told her that I would be leaving in 30 minutes whether she was there or not. And since she's the manager, an 18-yr-old kid shouldn't be displaying more responsibility, reliability, and dedication to his part-time job than she, as a 30-something, gave to her full-time job. Then I thanked her and hung up. I then wrote all this up in the cafe log book—a book we were supposed to write important notes for store management in that they would review daily. She showed up right at 30 minutes later, and I left. Upon returning from the vacation, she called and asked if I'd come in and cover a shift for her. I agreed. Upon arriving at the store, she was there, and she and the store manager told me I was fired for insubordination. I had expected it, of course, but that's beside the point. I'm sure I really really deserved to be the one fired in that situation, right?

- Nearly 20 years ago, I was fired from Best Buy. I'd worked there for somewhere close to 9 months, I think. Never missed a day. Even walked to work after my clutch went out on the interstate. The day before departing for an approved vacation, I declined the female store manager's advances and being asked out. The day I returned, I was asked to sign a document declaring that the reason for my firing was poor job performance and missing work. My direct manager on the pre-Geek Squad declined to sign the form—telling me privately afterward there was no way he could sign such a statement because he absolutely depended on me and was now fucked without a replacement—but wouldn't you know it ... lucky for Best Buy there was a store manager who was happy to do it. I declined to sign the form, informing them I'd happily sign a form that declared I was being fired after declining to go out with a superior. They declined to provide such a form, so I wrote it myself on their form, after striking through their bullshit reason, and signed that statement. But again, surely I really really deserved being fired there.

- 17 years ago, I worked as a temp worker with Randstad for Maytag in one of their customer service centers. It was a pretty easy job—just take calls all day and help people figure out appliance problems. One day, Maytag announced they were moving a US factory to Renosa, Mexico. There were quite a few jobs being lost. That night, at home, on my personal computer, I was doing some research into US companies moving factories to Mexico. There was a particular organization in Texas that helped facilitate such moves who mentioned working with Maytag on their website. They had a form on their site you could fill out for more information, or to ask questions. So, I filled out the form—asked some specific questions about working conditions, average pay rates of Mexican workers compared to US workers, time to spin up factories, worker treatment, and a few other things. I put my name, email, and phone number in the form. There was an input that asked where I worked that was required—so I just typed in Maytag without thinking and moved on. The next morning, I arrived at my desk to a couple managers waiting for me. Followed them into the office, where they showed me a printout of the form I had filled out the night before on my personal computer at home. All the questions I'd asked. They asked what I thought I was doing. I simply explained—in absolute honesty—I was very curious about how factory moves work, how workers are treated and paid in Mexico, especially compared to union workers at Maytag's existing US factories, and had found that site saying they could provide such information. They told me I was a customer service rep and had no business looking into such matters, and then informed me I was being fired for impersonating Maytag company personnel and misrepresenting their interests. But, of course, I really really deserved it.

> Hell, it's even illegal to fire striking employees.

- Oh, this is a funny one. About 15 years ago, I was fired after getting involved with union organizing, and sharing some literature and discussing unions with my coworkers. This was in a factory, where part of the employees were already unionized, but the company was subcontracting jobs out to cheaper, non-union workers like me. I mean, it's supposed to be illegal to fire someone for union organizing. Ah, the beauty of a right-to-work state—where every employee is an at-will employee, and you can pretty much make up any excuse to fire them. But alas, I'm sure I really really deserved it.

I moved into sales for a few years after that, and did really well. Then I finally decided to put my computer skills to use as a software developer 12 years ago—and subsequently turned that into running my own business for the last 7 or 8 years. The tech world has been quite different—though there are still plenty of issues that could be improved. However, the lessons of my years of "normal" employment were quite clear—in right-to-work states, it's absolutely okay for employers to terminate any employee, any time, for any reason. Real reasons. Utter bullshit reasons. It doesn't matter. The employer has all the power, and the employee has to just take it or lose their job and income.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#450
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

To pay for my nice computer science education, I worked in mine exploration and later a working mine. > Another thing I'd say is that with farming (and other manual labor activities) there is very little that is not known beforehand. You might have some unexpected events, but even then, you likely know what to do in those occasions. With mental work it's a lot more unpredictable and full of unknowns. This is laughabl…

I disagree. I worked in construction and factories in the past. Problem solving at your typical physical job is easier mentally. Moreover, the duration and number of occurrences is much less. When I came home after work, I did not think about work compared to when I became a programmer. The physical exhaustion and aches were pronounced, but I didn't feel any mental exhaustion unless I was sleep deprived due to working overtime.
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