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The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

theincidentaleconomist.com

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Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#41

Post by zzzeek »

phren0logy wrote: post #13
SeanDav wrote: post #8

Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because vaccines are not always good for individuals and government are conditioned to not admit this or keep it as quiet as possible. My daughter had complications 10 days after her MMR in the UK. She had episodes of going floppy and eyes rolling back in her head while making strange mewing sounds. 10 days is around the time that the measles component…

Can you please provide credible (i.e. peer-reviewed) references to the symptoms you describe being a known side-effect of MMR vaccination? And to doctors being "encouraged" not to admit said side-effects? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual. Which brings me to my next point: any decision has consequences. If there is a 1 in 1 billion chance of a side-effect, and a 1…

> I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual.

How do you know it's unusual if the symptoms in question haven't been studied ? If there's no study, all you have is anecdotal evidence. It could be happening all the time, perhaps to a lesser degree.

edit: dear mr. downmodder. I appreciate your response ! I understand the rationale of doctors who shrug off what their patients tell them much better now, thanks, and I now have a deeper respect for their wisdom when they tell me my symptoms are all in my head or something similar.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#42

Post by tokenadult »

SeanDav wrote: post #28

http://www.jabs.org.uk/ Look at this site and their forum for a broader perspective on vaccines and side-effects. Some highly qualified people from both sides of the fence express opinions here.

That organization had much to do with starting the fraud in the first place.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#43

Post by burgerbrain »

cynicalkane wrote: post #23
burgerbrain wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are a trained medical professional in this particular area of study, you have absolutely no business making up your own mind.

A sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person should be able to, with enough consideration, make up his mind about just about anything that lives in a knowledge domain. It's not like the medical profession emerged fully-formed from the head of Zeus.

Any sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person could decide for themselves if gravity exists, It's not like our understanding of physics emerged fully-formed from the head of Zeus.

Any sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person wouldn't be questioning the established medical fact that vaccines provide an overwhelming net benefit. If they are, they almost certainly are not qualified to make an educated decision about it.

It's fine and dandy to play expert without a formal education in almost every situation, but in this case the lives of people, _and not just your own children_ is in play.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#44

Post by Alex3917 »

notahacker wrote: post #37
Alex3917 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that this article isn't about how the public was wrong, it's an example the rampant corruption in mainstream science. And it's one of hundreds of examples of how the current states of science, peer review, and publishing are horrifically broken. Let's look at the facts of this case. The author didn't cite his financial connections, but the journal failed to catch this. The author made up data, but the jo…

I think it's pretty evident the scientific establishment isn't perfect and thus has differences of opinion, and you make a good point about lack of openness. But the pertinent facts are that the majority of medical professionals and the NHS that paid for the treatments stood behind the drug companies' testing and the vaccination's safety record whilst the angry parents' law firm, their outspoken shill medic and the m…

"media coverage encouraged large segments of the British public to wrongly challenge the balance of medical opinion."

This study came out in 1998, and the media coverage didn't peak until late 2005. The vast majority of those in the anti-vaccine movement had never even read the original article, and only gave it credence because of the lack of transparency. In between when the study was released and when the media hype peaked:

* The largest companies in the world were going bankrupt because the government was encouraging them to use fraudulent mark-to-market accounting methods

* The government prevented any investigation into 9/11 for over a year, and then stonewalled and lied to the investigating committee once it was finally formed.

* The government lied about the safety of the air at ground zero.

* The government lied about Iraq having WMDs and being connected to 9/11, and started a war based on these lies.

Even if it was scientifically unjustified to believe that vaccines caused autism based on one study, there was nothing unreasonable about parents avoiding the vaccinations once they heard that the government was once again lying.

You don't get to claim that people should trust you if you are constantly lying to them. What happened with regards to falling vaccination rates was completely reasonable and predictable given the circumstances, whether scientifically justifiable or not. And it was only after an epic government fuckup of 7+ years that the issue went from being a fringe concern to a mainstream panic.

In that environment, whether medical professionals or the NHS were for or against the treatments was really not pertinent at all.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#45

Post by Bystander »

notahacker wrote: post #37
Alex3917 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that this article isn't about how the public was wrong, it's an example the rampant corruption in mainstream science. And it's one of hundreds of examples of how the current states of science, peer review, and publishing are horrifically broken. Let's look at the facts of this case. The author didn't cite his financial connections, but the journal failed to catch this. The author made up data, but the jo…

I think it's pretty evident the scientific establishment isn't perfect and thus has differences of opinion, and you make a good point about lack of openness. But the pertinent facts are that the majority of medical professionals and the NHS that paid for the treatments stood behind the drug companies' testing and the vaccination's safety record whilst the angry parents' law firm, their outspoken shill medic and the m…

Funny, but I bet this is exactly the way flat earthers argued earlier in history - "Everyone knows the Earth is flat! Unless you're a trained natural philosopher, keep your mouth shut!" Questioning 'facts' is only natural, and right. You should only take as fact that which you are ready to accept - what you've verified, however inexpertly, on your own.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#46

Post by steveplace »

SeanDav wrote: post #22
phren0logy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please provide credible (i.e. peer-reviewed) references to the symptoms you describe being a known side-effect of MMR vaccination? And to doctors being "encouraged" not to admit said side-effects? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual. Which brings me to my next point: any decision has consequences. If there is a 1 in 1 billion chance of a side-effect, and a 1…

Sure the "peer" review you require is on the long list of side-effects on one of the MMR manufacturer's own packaging. Look it up. The doctors being encouraged comes from the mouth of a doctor friend of ours that used to work for the NHS. Sorry you are just going to have to take my word on this. I can't prove this. Disagree with you on individual verse society point, but this is a discussion for another day.

The side-effects shown on a package of Bayer aspirin are pretty scary, too.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#47

Post by burgerbrain »

Bystander wrote: post #45
notahacker wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty evident the scientific establishment isn't perfect and thus has differences of opinion, and you make a good point about lack of openness. But the pertinent facts are that the majority of medical professionals and the NHS that paid for the treatments stood behind the drug companies' testing and the vaccination's safety record whilst the angry parents' law firm, their outspoken shill medic and the m…

Funny, but I bet this is exactly the way flat earthers argued earlier in history - "Everyone knows the Earth is flat! Unless you're a trained natural philosopher, keep your mouth shut!" Questioning 'facts' is only natural, and right. You should only take as fact that which you are ready to accept - what you've verified, however inexpertly, on your own.

Experts have known that the earth is round since the ancient Greeks. It has only been amateur uneducated "experts" claiming otherwise since then.

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#48

Post by SeanDav »

tokenadult wrote: post #42
SeanDav wrote: post #28

http://www.jabs.org.uk/ Look at this site and their forum for a broader perspective on vaccines and side-effects. Some highly qualified people from both sides of the fence express opinions here.

That organization had much to do with starting the fraud in the first place.

Please justify that comment, references?

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#49

Post by Locke1689 »

Bystander wrote: post #45
notahacker wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty evident the scientific establishment isn't perfect and thus has differences of opinion, and you make a good point about lack of openness. But the pertinent facts are that the majority of medical professionals and the NHS that paid for the treatments stood behind the drug companies' testing and the vaccination's safety record whilst the angry parents' law firm, their outspoken shill medic and the m…

Funny, but I bet this is exactly the way flat earthers argued earlier in history - "Everyone knows the Earth is flat! Unless you're a trained natural philosopher, keep your mouth shut!" Questioning 'facts' is only natural, and right. You should only take as fact that which you are ready to accept - what you've verified, however inexpertly, on your own.

Actually, that entire story is a myth invented in modern times to paint ancient thinkers as "backwards." And I quote:

The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the earth is flat appears to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896).

Re: The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

#50

Post by SeanDav »

burgerbrain wrote: post #12
SeanDav wrote: post #8

Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because vaccines are not always good for individuals and government are conditioned to not admit this or keep it as quiet as possible. My daughter had complications 10 days after her MMR in the UK. She had episodes of going floppy and eyes rolling back in her head while making strange mewing sounds. 10 days is around the time that the measles component…

Unless you are a trained medical professional in this particular area of study, you have absolutely no business making up your own mind.

I have 2 words for you : Lorenzo's Oil
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