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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#101

Post by atoav »

navigatesol wrote: post #73
alttab wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff has had 25 years to get good at it. Based on the reasoning in his article, it seems like he didn't try.

> it seems like he didn't try. He got good at other things he cared more about it. Maybe he should hang out on HackerNews more, so he can be an expert on everything.

Well if you make games, and visuals are a part of a game, then knowing when your visuals need improvement is a crucial skill.

Jeff doesn't needs to be an expert in everything, he needs to see what doesn't work and fix it, let others fix it or decide this is as good as it gets.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#102

Post by dkersten »

rasz wrote: post #67
d--b wrote: post #33

Dwarf Fortress, MineCraft, A Dark Room, etc. You don't need great graphics to make games that people really enjoy.

Rimworld also shows you dont need $$ and manpower to make great looking games. Its all about Style, not quality of actual assets. https://imgur.com/a/wS3Pt https://imgur.com/a/xdDzg

Those links are awesome l, thanks for posting!

As far as games with simple but nice art go, there’s also prison architect, stardew valley, Celeste, risk or rain, terraria, sword and sworcery, factorio... and many many more. It doesn’t need to be high res or super fancy, just consistent with a a nice colour palette.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#103

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

scotty79 wrote: post #78
meheleventyone wrote: post #9

Arrrgh, there are a lot of interesting and good points in the article but for the most part they miss the wood for the trees. The actual answer is that care isn't being taken to develop a style that looks good and meets his constraints. Jeff needs a good art director. The Ultima V and Baba is You examples are excellent counter-points because they show how great games with simple styles can look.

For me the actual message is that he doesn't have money to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, and he's not going to risk going into debt.

Very much this. It's hard to find a middle ground in software. You either bootstrap mom & pop, in which case you have limited output and limited options for development, but with a bit of luck and skill you can keep a solid lifestyle business running.

Or you try and hop on the unicorn train and start looking for external funding - which will invariably start trying to run your business for you, in ways which you may not want.

The big money is in the latter, but not everyone wants to deal with the proto-corporate bullshit that goes with it.

Occasionally you can find niches - usually B2B, because high-worth bootstrap B2C is very hard - which bring in enough to allow solid growth without huge upfront spending on people and offices.

But they're very rare. And apart from the odd flash-in-the-pan one offs, small games are not usually one of those niches.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#104

Post by freetime2 »

Jeff Vogel has run a successful business for 25 years - making the games he wants to make, living the life he wants to live, and making a lot of people happy in the process.

We should all be so lucky.

People may not like his graphics and that’s totally understandable. But hopefully everyone can at least respect his accomplishments.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#105

Post by jplayer01 »

cotelletta wrote: post #81
alttab wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it seems like he focused more on making sure that his artists were replaceable, even at the price of a hodge-podge style. The criticism is legitimate - it doesn't seem like Jeff has invested in his own ability to direct art.

Yeah and because art has vastly different constraints from coding, wanting to swap out artists is just counterproductive. Then again, the older I get, the more I think the same should apply to developers. You should never lock knowledge inside one person's head, but the idea that you can take over a project without its original creators doing a years long hand off is naive, and leads to all the expected pathologies.…

> wanting to swap out artists is just counterproductive

You're saying this like this was one of his design goals from the very beginning when he started 25 years ago. No, it's become a requirement because of how unreliable freelancers can be and how difficult it is to find a replacement that is able or willing to stick to the previous style. Thus generic fantasy stuff has become his solution to this issue that is unavoidable, regardless of whether people agree with him or not.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#106

Post by cousin_it »

adito wrote: post #94
cousin_it wrote: post #35

Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I recommend learning that skill, it will make your games look way better and it honestly doesn't take that much time.

Honest question, where does one learn that skill? If it doesn't take that much time, how long it usually takes? I have no clue about art, design, and stuff. Where does I even start?

I made a minimalistic game requiring only 3 colors, then spent a month making different palettes for it. Started with terrible color sense, ended up with this: https://imgur.com/a/boc29

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#107

Post by frereubu »

alttab wrote: post #63
jplayer01 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jeff needs a good art director. Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least double the sales? Which means more risk? And there's no guarantee he'll hit that even if the graphics look better? He spells out that he's working with freelancers, who often flake out for (understandable) various reasons.

You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. It seems Jeff has put no…

Some people just have no aptitude for aesthetics. It's one thing to know what you like personally, another thing entirely to understand what other people may or may not like.

Besides which, it feels like you're missing the larger point that he really doesn't care what other people like, which he can afford to do because he's making a comfortable living. I think it's great that he's making a living doing things that he enjoys without having to add stress by adding extra layers of complexity in the process - which would help how? More money? He clearly feels that he doesn't need more.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#108

Post by tamasnet »

alttab wrote: post #63
jplayer01 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jeff needs a good art director. Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least double the sales? Which means more risk? And there's no guarantee he'll hit that even if the graphics look better? He spells out that he's working with freelancers, who often flake out for (understandable) various reasons.

You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. It seems Jeff has put no…

Seems like you're rationalizing your assumptions instead of taking it upon yourself to understand the experience he's trying to convey.

> It seems Jeff has put no effort into it

From the article: "I have had games where I worked very hard to improve the graphics, spending a lot of time and money"

> he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way

He does direct art himself in some way: "That is why all of my games have a more generic fantasy style. I have to work with a lot of different artists. It's the nature of the business. Thus I have to write games in a way that the artists can be replaced. The generic style this requires is not ideal, but it is necessary."

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#109

Post by cotelletta »

jplayer01 wrote: post #105
cotelletta wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and because art has vastly different constraints from coding, wanting to swap out artists is just counterproductive. Then again, the older I get, the more I think the same should apply to developers. You should never lock knowledge inside one person's head, but the idea that you can take over a project without its original creators doing a years long hand off is naive, and leads to all the expected pathologies.…

> wanting to swap out artists is just counterproductive You're saying this like this was one of his design goals from the very beginning when he started 25 years ago. No, it's become a requirement because of how unreliable freelancers can be and how difficult it is to find a replacement that is able or willing to stick to the previous style. Thus generic fantasy stuff has become his solution to this issue that is una…

Perhaps. Or maybe freelance artists are frustrated working with someone who doesn't seem to understand what they like to see in good work, and what gives them a sense of satisfaction in a product they have worked on.

I mean the guy seems incapable of comprehending style if this is what he's putting out 25 years in.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#110

Post by mcphage »

atoav wrote: post #101
navigatesol wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like he didn't try. He got good at other things he cared more about it. Maybe he should hang out on HackerNews more, so he can be an expert on everything.

Well if you make games, and visuals are a part of a game, then knowing when your visuals need improvement is a crucial skill. Jeff doesn't needs to be an expert in everything, he needs to see what doesn't work and fix it, let others fix it or decide this is as good as it gets.

> decide this is as good as it gets.

He just wrote a very long article explaining just that.

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