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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#291

Post by entrynode »

thewileyone wrote: post #279

I could understand Hong Kong protesting to stop extradition of Hong Kong residents by Beijing because it could open too many doors. However, the original extradition request was for a murder suspect to be extradited to Taiwan, which I don't see anything wrong it. Now, they've gotten the extradition rescinded, what else are they protesting for? That's the real question that the protesters are not answering. It's almos…

I think you may be slightly misinformed there, the extradition bill has not been fully rescinded, only suspended.

The protests continue with the demands of

1. Withdraw the bill

2. Carrie Lam steps down

3. An independent inquiry into police brutality

4. Release of protesters arrested

5. Universal Suffrage

There's plenty of reasons for them to protest without blaming foreign influence

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#292

Post by throwaway3e2tr »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #231
hos234 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't "jar" people into Learning anything. That is why the late night comedian brigade and the bombastic news reader class (don't call them journalists) have never managed to change anyone's minds, irrespective of how many years of likes, laughs and claps they get from their own fan clubs. It's true of the left and the right. Jaring (blaming/shaming/guilt triping) or shaking people up is not a teaching technique…

I'm not sure how you read all that into my comment. I was simply asking for examples of good articles to send to them.

On the reverse side, is there anything they could send you to change your beliefs?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#293

Post by entrynode »

jialutu wrote: post #285
factsaresacred wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The extradition bill? To do what? To extradite a Hong Kong teen that killed his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan so he can be prosecuted there You're being disingenuous. The extradition bill is ostensibly about that case but here's the reality: the bill would allow Hongkongers to be extradited to mainland China, where the legal system is a joke. The prospect of being arrested in HK and shipped to authoritarian China i…

Neither I nor any of my family have been tried in China (I am guessing you haven't either), so I cannot comment on the legal system, but in reality, the legal system in the UK is not perfect either. There was a really good book released 2018 about how the legal system is broken here, if you are interested, it's a really good read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-Broken... Onto the topic of the e…

what is the relevance of the UK legal system here? The discussion is about China

Secondly, it could easily be argued that a legal extradition route would be a lot easier than secretly kidnapping and disappearing people over the border. Why do you think it would be easier to kidnap?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#294

Post by mitfahrener »

dogma1138 wrote: post #244
Mikeb85 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relative wealth then. HK has long had a GDP per capita on par with western nations. Versus China which has had a GDP per capita on par with developing nations until fairly recently.

Have you been to HK? The level of inequality there is staggering and the cost of living is much higher than most western countries, including things such as rent. You think SV valley rents are bat shit crazy? Take a look at HK real estate listings.

That doesn't seem to be mainland/CCP's fault. The big real estate developers (the Lee, Kwoks families, etc) owns much of the properties. Why is mainland China the target for inequality and housing issue to blame? I have no stake in this fight, just curious.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#295

Post by mitfahrener »

seppin wrote: post #193
Mikeb85 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs l…

> if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened You are assuming HKers would sell their freedom to a tyrprican government in exchange for GDP growth the way mainland Chinese can. That's a big assumption.

Singapore. Low on freedom, high on equality/housing. No protest.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#296

Post by Barrin92 »

dialpennteller wrote: post #209
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

>Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle The so called 'economic miracle' fallacy only works if you ignore that it was the CCP who crippled the economic development of China. Loosening your grip upon your victim's neck is not the same as performing the Heimlich maneuver. It doesn't make you a qualified doctor. The 'economic miracle' fallacy presents the strangler as the savior. If we can agree tha…

>Ultimately it was not central planning which advanced the economic circumstances of Chinese people. It was the individual acts of citizens.

Given the large disparity between China and other developing countries, yes the government from the 80s onwards has played a significant role in accelerating the development of the country. The alternative conclusion would be that individual citizens of the rest of the world are somehow significantly less capable than the Chinese, which strikes me as a odd conclusion.

And the one child policy definitely had a positive effect on the development of the country. It effectively kickstarted a middle class by enabling parents to funnel resources into a single child.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#297

Post by pimmen »

Joakal wrote: post #272
pimmen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood then why the Chinese are against democracy. If everyone is happy and can't imagine a better government wouldn't they just elect the CCP every time?

Maybe not all, but Chinese people want democracy. There's one case of a village that elected their own leaders in China. See Hong Kong, Tienanmen Square Massacre, Wukan Democracy experiment (Mainland Chinese) or Taiwan (ROC/CCP say Taiwan is part of China). But you will find that CCP insists on having the last say. Imagine electing Trump and Walmart CEO says we won't support the plan to build USA-Mexico wall. Trump s…

Yeah, I was a bit generalizing in my comment and could've phrased it better. What I meant to say was that I don't understand how so many Chinese people reconcile the idea that the CCP enjoys nation wide support with the perspective that democracy and checks an balances would make China worse. If everything's awesome and just what the people want the CCP would just get legitimacy not just domestically but also in the International community.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#298

Post by roboys »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #172
Mikeb85 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs l…

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I…

>You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do.

Getting rid of segregation has a strong moral foundation and backing... keeping colonial roots in control of HK, not so much.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#299

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

throwaway3e2tr wrote: post #292
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how you read all that into my comment. I was simply asking for examples of good articles to send to them.

On the reverse side, is there anything they could send you to change your beliefs?

I've been to Tibet and seen with my own eyes how the Chinese government operates there, so it would be a pretty uphill fight to convince me to believe Chinese state media instead of Western/HK media.

Perhaps that's the key then: send everybody in mainland China to watch an actual protest in Hong Kong...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#300

Post by roboys »

_ptgt wrote: post #204
seppin wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened You are assuming HKers would sell their freedom to a tyrprican government in exchange for GDP growth the way mainland Chinese can. That's a big assumption.

It's not like mainlanders every really had a choice. Their own protests were crushed with tanks in 1989 and they've been relentlessly propagandized on everything from the papers to the schools to social media since then. I have zero doubts such strong propaganda efforts over decades would yield similar results on the vast majority Americans had it happened here.

It did happen here (in the West) and your views on China were molded by the framing our propaganda efforts introduced.
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