Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#141

Post by PeterStuer » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 7:58 AM UTC

freddie_mercury wrote: post #70

PeterStuer wrote: post #66

If you look at hours per worked per family, things have gotten even way worse since woman were drafted en mass into the salaried workforce post ww2, going from a 40hr week to well over 70hrs.

That's really only true is you take the parochial view that what women do at home isn't "work", when it clearly is work. In the 1940s a woman would typically spend 62 hours a week in housework. Nowadays women typically spend 15 hours in housework and 45 hours in paid work. So the same ballpark, really, and not a dramatic expansion.

I specifically mentioned 'salaried' work, as monetary income has a direct impact on prices. 2 salaries is now expected and often required for many families.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#142

Post by coldtea » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 7:58 AM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #120

kortilla wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should look into inflation. Most jobs pre-industrialization absolutely would not provide you food with delivery or several shirts in exchange for a couple hours of unskilled labor (which is what you can get today).

I'm not sure it's what the parent comment is doing, but it's beyond baffling to me when I see this view in the wild. You'd have to be completely ignorant of staggering amounts of history, economics, and basic arithmetic to think that historical incomes were anywhere close to what we have today in terms of consumer goods, and yet I see this very often. (Not to be mistaken with more reasonable arguments that rely on th…

Well, one also has to be completely ignorant of staggering amounts of history, culture, and social understanding, to think that historical cultural concerns where anywhere close to what we have today in terms of consumer goods and buying more stuff...

You could be perfectly content (and more happy than most office drones with 1000x the stuff) with a couple of clothe articles, food and a basic home...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#143

Post by ido » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 7:58 AM UTC

jaynetics wrote: post #73

bsanr2 wrote: post #54

In America, at least, we should consider the legacy of slavery and indentured servitude in attitudes towards working hours. Many of the expectations for economic output by American industry have been set by the productivity of people who had little or no right to question the conditions they worked under, overseen by people who cared little for their well-being beyond that productivity. If that's the basis of the Ame…

There are plenty bosses like this in Germany, which doesn't have as much of a history of slavery. I'd wager that when looking at countries with roughly the same level of industrialization, whether humans view fellow humans as something more than mere resources is linked to a certain set of attitudes. I'd guess that reduced working hours are positively correlated to pluralism and pacifism, and perhaps negatively corre…

Oh man, either you have a completely different experience than me or you don't know what it's like working elsewhere.

I'm Israeli & spent the last 6 years living in Germany. I lived in Austria for 8 years before that. Israel is quite a dog-eat-dog hyper-capitalism kind of economy, maybe not to the wild extent of the US but definitely closer to it than to Germany & Austria (the two countries have very similar culture/attitudes in this particular area).

While there are plenty of asshole bosses here, the kind of attitude common in hyper-capitalist countries is not comparable. Even the assholes will not dare publicly espouse the kind of Libertarian anti-working-class vitriol in a Berlin working place (or even outside of it).

How often did you hear your German boss say that the state should not offer welfare as it's just supporting laziness? Or that "taxes are theft"? That whatever work "the free market" doesn't directly support via consumers spending money should not exist (e.g. publicly funded theatre)?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#144

Post by enqk » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

mistersquid wrote: post #85

stevesimmons wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound as if washing and ironing is a massive chore. Let's say you have 5 shirts a week. Step 1: When you do your white wash, throw in the shirts. Hang them up afterwards. Incremental cost: 2 minutes of your time... Step 2: When you do ironing, incremental cost of 5 shirts @ 3 minutes per shirt is 15 minutes... Probably less that your two trips to the dry cleaner. Plus, nil $ cost, no plastic wrapping to t…

> When you do ironing, incremental cost of 5 shirts @ 3 minutes per shirt is 15 minutes. 3 mins? I iron my shirts, five a week, and it takes me 10-15 mins per shirt, depending on the shirt.

There's something wrong with your technique or the materials.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#145

Post by badpun » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #135

coldtea wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They who work in the daycares are not a "serf class", they are paid professionals, and they don't need to have "terrible wages" in a civilized country.

Sure, they don't need to have terrible wages. Do they though? Are daycare workers a healthy mix of educated men and women with a lot of other economic opportunities but choose to be daycare workers because of the pay or emotional rewards?

In Poland, you need to have a specialized degree to work with children in a daycare/kindergarden. The wages mostly suck though.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#146

Post by Swizec » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #135

coldtea wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They who work in the daycares are not a "serf class", they are paid professionals, and they don't need to have "terrible wages" in a civilized country.

Sure, they don't need to have terrible wages. Do they though? Are daycare workers a healthy mix of educated men and women with a lot of other economic opportunities but choose to be daycare workers because of the pay or emotional rewards?

Where I’m from (slovenia) you need to major in kindergarten education to be a kindergarten teacher. So while the major is a little limited, it’s still a bachelors.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#147

Post by coldtea » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 8:00 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #135

coldtea wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They who work in the daycares are not a "serf class", they are paid professionals, and they don't need to have "terrible wages" in a civilized country.

Sure, they don't need to have terrible wages. Do they though? Are daycare workers a healthy mix of educated men and women with a lot of other economic opportunities but choose to be daycare workers because of the pay or emotional rewards?

>Are daycare workers a healthy mix of educated men and women with a lot of other economic opportunities but choose to be daycare workers because of the pay or emotional rewards?

That's shifting the goalposts a little. Why would they need to have "a lot of other economic opportunities" anymore than tons of jobs (restaurant staff, retail employees, factory workers, truckers, etc) have?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#148

Post by lazyjones » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 8:05 AM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #123

goatlover wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people want to work OT hours for the extra money, to get stuff done, or because they like working more than 40 hours.

Why do they like working more? Are they masochists?

Some might want to earn more money so they can retire earlier. Others might actually like their jobs. I've seen people work 10-20 hours more regularly without anyone asking them to.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#149

Post by averros » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 8:05 AM UTC

Well, in the Middle Ages no government or lord routinely took half of worker's production. Historically the "tax" was around 10% flat, and there weren't myriad other fees and indirect taxes (such as corporate tax).

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#150

Post by jokoon » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 8:06 AM UTC

I'm not waiting for society to change to live a better, more normal life, I've already abandoned the classic work sphere and its crazy carousel, and it has a long time since I have accepted it.

All those findings done in that research confirms a lot of how I'm feeling already.

It's true that I don't "see" as many people as people who work, so I socialize less and I don't meet many people, but:

* I learned that having several friends can be "come and go", it's not an essential part of life (like many people would pretend), and many people told me it can be difficult to keep having those friends. Friendships can be hard work. Introversion is not a flaw.

* I realize that work won't necessarily improve your social life, a lot of the time it can make it worse.

Work is never forced, there are welfare programs and other way to sustain yourself, and once you realize that people who work 40 hours a week consent to it, it allows you to benefit from the mainstream belief that work matters. If you think about it, nobody will send you to prison or punish you for not working. Most people go to work because it's a habit, because they want to see and talk to their colleagues.