Preindustrial workers also had organic food and clean air. And no commute
Huge commute for hunter gatherers.
Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
101–110 of 523 posts
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#102I can measure my output quite effectively and could, if allowed by my boss, adjust my hours to ensure some constant level of output - ie work less when Inwas being more productive. However my boss cannot measure that output - it's generally too complex, too uncertain too ... software-y Until we fix that, which is possible, we are stuck with "work 8 hours"
Your boss cannot measure that, I would argue, because he's incompetent (assessing progress of subordinate is a primary management function)
As a boss myself, if my developers finish early, they are free to go. I can read their code and pull requests, I know who is pulling their weight.
When I worked at Google, all of my bosses (including project managers) could read code at a superficial level, and accurately assess progress, so it's certainly not unique to my org.
There's better options out there
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#103> One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. This myth is typically defended by a comparison of the modern forty-hour week with its seventy- or eighty-hour counterpart in the nineteenth century. The implicit -- but rarely articulated -- assumption is that the eighty-hour standard has prevailed for centuries. The comparison conjures up the dreary life of medieval peasants, toiling steadi…
> Capitalism may have a higher demand in terms of hours worked in explicit employment, but I doubt many today would genuinely trade life in a capitalist country for life in a pre-industrial society.
You are projecting the circumstances of Northern Europe. But this is a tough place to get by. So is Northern China etc.
On the other end of the spectrum on some islands in Indonesia people need no more then 7 days of work per year to put a food on a table (from sago palm).
Naturaly people would rather live where resources are abundant and living is easy.
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#104I think there is absolutely no need every adult person needs to work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. We might just as well work 4 hours a day or 3 days a week. It seems to me, this is just a matter of how the market pressures people to spend as much time as possible at work vs how much work most people can tolerate. How do I know? There are countries where it is normal that both parents work to provide for their hou…
The commute may influence this. The average American commute is about 30 minutes each way. That's 1 hour round trip.
Commute as a portion of work time....
4 hrs work: 25%
5 hrs work: 20%
6 hrs work: 16.7%
7 hrs work: 14.3%
8 hrs work: 12.5%
Considering you don't get paid for your commute, there is a natural incentive to work more hours.
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#105Slavery isn't abolished, you've just stopped recognising it. was an ad for a local SUV over a decade ago.
- Spending is good for Capitalism
-- Spending on products with short-life is even better
--- Everyday dependency on short-life products is a gold-mine.
Break nation in to major groups based on colour, religion, language, jobs, social status. Break each group into families, families into nuclear & nuclear into individuals. Coz, "I'm Unique" is the best catalyst for consumerism. "I did it my way", reminds us so.
Growing population is the best reinforcement out there for consumerism.
BUT, Democratic-Republics & Capitalism are best out there for people in general.
We accept long working hours coz, we're chasing a dream; sadly a dream aptly set by others. But, most likely we're in debt; monetary advances we received to chase our/their dreams.
make a list of things you own that you haven't used over a month; you might want to share them with others if you don't like long working hours
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#106I think there is absolutely no need every adult person needs to work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. We might just as well work 4 hours a day or 3 days a week. It seems to me, this is just a matter of how the market pressures people to spend as much time as possible at work vs how much work most people can tolerate. How do I know? There are countries where it is normal that both parents work to provide for their hou…
The commute may influence this. The average American commute is about 30 minutes each way. That's 1 hour round trip. Commute as a portion of work time.... 4 hrs work: 25% 5 hrs work: 20% 6 hrs work: 16.7% 7 hrs work: 14.3% 8 hrs work: 12.5% Considering you don't get paid for your commute, there is a natural incentive to work more hours.
10h 4 days a week to keep the 40h work week. But it also depends on the type of work. I think desk jobs would benefit more than manual labour form longer days(asuming same total). As the mind and body recovers differently.
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#107Here is some more recent data (from 2014): https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours I'm glad I live and work in Norway where the average is between 1300 and 1500 hours a year.
42 hours in Switzerland is IMHO a lie. I’ve seen and experienced tech and pharma setting expectations so high that people have to work at least 50-60 hours.
Don't forget the commute either. Suddenly you're clocking in 12h days without even noticing.
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#108Meh, I think this lacks perspective. Maybe you 'worked' less in that era in the sense that you provided a smaller portion of your time to a third party for pay. But, you worked more overall. You didn't work for a few hours then order food for dinner; You probably worked a few hours, then spent the next many hours either harvesting and/or creating all the requirements for life. Maybe you spent 2 hours hunting a deer,…
Working on a side project to scratch your own itch feels very emotionally different than working for someone else. And in the same way washing clothes or making dinner doesn't feel stressful in the way working for someone else does.
That is not universally true. I would much rather work (at my employer) than do household stuff. I like to cook but I still by the pre-planned bags with recipes since I don't like the planning part. But I pay someone else to clean my home since i rather work.
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#109In America, at least, we should consider the legacy of slavery and indentured servitude in attitudes towards working hours. Many of the expectations for economic output by American industry have been set by the productivity of people who had little or no right to question the conditions they worked under, overseen by people who cared little for their well-being beyond that productivity. If that's the basis of the Ame…
Let's first get everyone on an even playing field. 40 hours is a laughable suggestion to many workers right now. If you could promise every worker that they have to work 40 hours a week for the rest of their life but that OT was forever banned after, I don't think you'd hear many complaints ever again.
Some people want to work OT hours for the extra money, to get stuff done, or because they like working more than 40 hours.
Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)
#110> One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. This myth is typically defended by a comparison of the modern forty-hour week with its seventy- or eighty-hour counterpart in the nineteenth century. The implicit -- but rarely articulated -- assumption is that the eighty-hour standard has prevailed for centuries. The comparison conjures up the dreary life of medieval peasants, toiling steadi…
Who said that we have to trade current life for pre-industrial? Learning from the advantages of pre-industrial life and applying them now, is the point of the article, not regression.