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15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

nytimes.com

641–650 of 932 posts

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are minorities in at least one aspect that they hold dear to their identity. Under tyranny of the majority, they risk finding that aspect made illegal.

Why do you think that tyranny of the minority is better?

Why do you assume there's an excluded middle, and that tyranny of one group over another is inevitable?

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#642

There are discussions about the electoral college favoring small states. Some people think that's bad, some people think it's good. However, there's a more important issue: that's not really what the electoral college does. It gives a small edge to small states[0]. The much bigger effect is that in every given election, it favors a handful of battleground states over all the rest. If you live in Wyoming, the electora…

Well, there's a potential "easy" way of solving this: making votes in the electoral college proportional to how the electorate voted in the state

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#643

There are discussions about the electoral college favoring small states. Some people think that's bad, some people think it's good. However, there's a more important issue: that's not really what the electoral college does. It gives a small edge to small states[0]. The much bigger effect is that in every given election, it favors a handful of battleground states over all the rest. If you live in Wyoming, the electora…

You should be careful about the word "small" here. What you mean is least populous, but geographically, they are large. Thus, the question is: Do you want the majority of the USA geography being controlled by the will of people least knowledgeable about it? If you eliminate the electoral college you give political control of resources to those who have absolutely NO physical control of those resources and yet still s…

> Do you want the majority of the USA geography being controlled by the will of people least knowledgeable about it?

Well, if you want to propose a system where Alaska (area 570,640.95 sq mi) gets the same representation as Rhode Island, Delaware, Connecticut, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Hawaii, Maryland, West Virginia, South Carolina, Maine, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama combined (area ~525,000 sq mi),

...then I'm all ears...

* Please don't tell me "But Alaska has so few people!"

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump has been able to get almost nothing done. He got a tax cut, which was billed as radical but mostly just brings our corporate taxes in line with Western Europe. And he put tariffs on China—one of the few things the President can do without the support of Congress.

Is was my understanding it moves our nominal rates in line with the rest of the world, but this reduces our effective rates to below the rest of the world.

It’ll take a few years for the data to play out, but that’s likely not the case. A CBO study found that our effective corporate tax rate before the Trump tax cut was 18.6%. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/541797699/fact-check-does-the.... France, Australia, and Canada were from 8.5-11.2%. The Trump tax cut dropped the nominal rate by about 1/3 (accounting for state corporate taxes, which didn’t change). Assuming a proportional drop in the effective rate (which is a wild ass guess), that would move us below Brazil, Germany, and India, but keep us slightly above France, Canada, And Australia.

The US media coverage of Trump’s corporate tax cuts really misrepresented how completely mainstream it was: https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/wp-content/uplo.... While the US nominal rate of almost 40% total was around the OECD average in 1990, the rest of the OECD dropped to just over 20% by 2017. Meanwhile, the US nominal rate didn’t drop at all.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's great about the electoral college is you need to have cross-regional appeal to win. So its less about which states are going to be battleground but that you generally can't just appeal to 1 or 2 regions and win. In a goal of preserving the union, it's better to have a system that pushes cross-regional appeal than a system based strictly on number of votes IMO.

My recollection from civics was that the college is to prevent populist candidates from winning. Someone very popular only in densely populated areas may have an agenda that hurts rural ones (eg, noting that federal taxes disproportionately go to rural areas for things like maintaining highways, make it “fair” and leave rural people with shit roads and diminished services).

It was indeed intended to prevent populism; the idea is that instead of voting for the president you vote for a group of people who you trust to then choose a president. But it has never in practice worked that way.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#646

The electoral college was created to strike a balance between valuing a diversity of perspectives and popularity of perspectives. The probability that a geographically restricted monoculture gets it right is very close to zero.

That's not what the electoral college does. It's a post-hoc justification your high school teacher probably came up with on the fly, and you clearly haven't thought about it critically since.

The only thing the electoral college does is give the voting power of local minorities to local majorities.

3 million people in the state vote for A

4 million people in the state vote for B

B gets 7 million people's worth of electoral votes, A gets nothing. Repeat 47 times.

There is no explanation for this that makes sense. It wasn't designed this way, it happened by accident. The framers tried to stop it in the 1790s and 1800s, but there was no political will: everybody wanted to exploit the antidemocratic loophole in the constitution instead of fixing it.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish someone with $$ would start plastering this message everywhere the absurd "get rid of the elctoral college" debate comes up. We are not a democracy, seriously no one wants a democracy of 300 million plus. We are a federation of states that is supposed to have most of the control in their region and sacrifice a little bit of control to the federal government for purposes of defense and commerce. Your "democracy…

All the real money is already on the side of preserving the electoral college. You should examine why this is and reassess.

There are plenty of good things in this world that bad people can twist to their benefit.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#650
post #179

If this happens, Democrats will be very unhappy with how many Republicans there are in Upstate New York, Southern Illinois and Rural California who's vote now counts for something.

Democrats want rural Republicans in New York to have their voice heard, that's the whole point: everyone's vote should count equally and the winner should need to seek majority support.

Unlike Republicans, Democrats have these things called "principles". They are ideas that you believe in whether they benefit you or not.

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