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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#121

Post by guardiangod »

markus_zhang wrote: post #67
Joakal wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it's doing good when they have a reputation for censor and change narratives to suit their agenda?

They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.

>They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity.

So did the Soviet Union. They lifted hundreds of millions of people from the ruinous World World 2 to a modern industrial society. It's what happened after _that_ that warrants concern.

Another argument is that, yes, CCP did lift most of the population out of subsistence poverty, but can another Party do better? Can the Taiwanese Republic of China government do better (probably not)? can another party modernize China in less time than CCP's 50 years (1949-2000)?

As for censorship and change narratives. I can swear at the leader of my country without fear. Can you do the same to Xi in China?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#122

Post by [deleted] »

PixyMisa wrote: post #101
markus_zhang wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.

> Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That is considered a fairly low bar by Western standards.

[deleted]

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#123

Post by morpheuskafka »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

If the government can throw you in into a re-education camp at a snap of their fingers, that's not economic prosperity in my book. Better to be poor and free than economically sufficient at the pleasure and whim of a dictator.

The entire concept of economic prosperity is meaningless outside a free market with due process protections. If the government can take away your prosperity for no reason at all, it's purely arbitrary and ephemeral whether or not you actually have it at any given moment.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#124

Post by nailer »

bgee wrote: post #32
Joakal wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests (China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule? Have they read about Wukan D…

> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China . Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainla…

Do you think the CCP will ever respect two systems?

How do you think autocratic governments handle corruption compared to democracies?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#125

Post by stringroll »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #13

Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government propaganda. As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can VPN outside it.) For exa…

Share them the document 9 leak:

http://www.chinafile.com/document-9-chinafile-translation

It's a memo that warns of the 7 deadly "Western Values."

Some of the key points in the memo is that the Communist Party is above the law, and that party members should not encourage any form of constitutional governance or separation of power. You as an individual have no right to due process, and so that means if there are powerful party members that do not like you, they have every power to not follow any rules, and so they can kidnap you and torture you and seize assets from you without any form of judicial independence, and because independent media isn't allowed you cannot just reach out toward the public for help. In fact, the Chief Justice of China has said:

"[China's courts] must firmly resist the western idea of “constitutional democracy”, “separation of powers” and “judicial independence”. These are erroneous western notions that threaten the leadership of the ruling Communist Party and defame the Chinese socialist path on the rule of law. We have to raise our flag and show our sword to struggle against such thoughts. We must not fall into the trap of western thoughts and judicial independence. We must stay firm on the Chinese socialist path on the rule of law."[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Qiang]

You see , this is one reason for the Hong Kong protests, in that they do not trust the Communist Party since the party doesn't have to play by the rules.

Explain to your friends that there is a limit to what you can trust in any media, even in the West. You always have to look at who owns in the media, and the majority of the media in Mainland China is controlled by the Communist Party. Hence, you cannot really trust the Mainland Chinese Media would be critical of the party actions/mistakes . In fact from the memo, it says any "historical reassessing" of past party mistakes isn't allowed as it threatens the face of the party. The "Fourth Estate" or "Free flow of information" also threatens the party's position in power. I suggest showing your friend this video on how the party has been constricting the free flow information about the Hong Kong protests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpFE49oo__8 to build this alternate reality of what is happening on the ground.

Lastly, make the point to separate China as a country from the Communist Party itself. Criticizing the party dosen't mean criticizing him/her as a Chinese person.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#126

Post by Quekid5 »

markus_zhang wrote: post #103
Quekid5 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Sapolsky's Behave also had a good insight here (not his, just referenced) about the importance of the general culture of a region -- namely whether it's a Collectivist or Individualist. This simple dichotomy can explain a great many misunderstandings, talkings-past-each-other and (interestingly) quite a few differences in moral judgements.

Yes it's true. The more I live in western countries the less I argue with other people about these political things. Today might be the exception though...people are right to have their own views, there is no need to agree with each other...

You say "it's true" and yet you continue to say something completely tangential to what I said?

I did not state any position on the matter at hand.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#127

Post by morpheuskafka »

ryanobjc wrote: post #57
markus_zhang wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

So "better" entirely depends on your values, right? Ever heard of the phrase "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees?" Not everyone shares the ethos that a full belly is happiness and goodness. There is more to life than mere material goods. What makes a life worth living even? I guess if you have a job all is good, at least as per your line of argumentation.

Not only is there the inherent moral value of freedom, but from a purely material standpoint, if the government has the right to take away your precious job and full belly for any reason, you don't really own it at all.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#128

Post by morpheuskafka »

markus_zhang wrote: post #67
Joakal wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it's doing good when they have a reputation for censor and change narratives to suit their agenda?

They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.

And carrying anyone who opposed them into economic ruin (to say the least) in a reeducation camp.

Not to mention that most of that was enabled by IP theft, abuse of workers, lack of safety and quality standards, and other dishonest means.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#129

Post by dirtyid »

GuiA wrote: post #102
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #13

Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government propaganda. As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can VPN outside it.) For exa…

Equally serious question: Why do you want to plant seeds of doubt? I suspect you are likely to answer something like “because it’s for their own good”, or “because they have a right to the Truth”. Have you considered that what is good/true for people is heavily dependent on their personal circumstances? If, after planting those seeds of doubt, your friend or one of their family members suddenly disappears and you nev…

The amount of anecdotes of "my Chinese coworker/girlfriend/wife" (never boyfriend/husband) is brainwashed and the savior complexes that arise is intriguing. In general, mainland Chinese nationals / ex-Citizens who work in the west are typically well educated and intelligent. Why is it so hard to believe that they have reconciled both Chinese and Western narratives and arrived at the conclusions that they feel is appropriate having dual perspectives and experiences, i.e. they have broader understanding of the topic than one lens and if overwhelmingly these people are still pro-Chinese positions, then perhaps incorporate that data instead of dismiss it as brainwashing. If seeing your extended families quality of life improve every year and experiencing first hand Chinese tier1 cities and infrastructure eclipsing development in the west is brainwashing, then I hope the West adopt it.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#130

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

markus_zhang wrote: post #117
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone feels a lack of free speech about issues they want to discuss. The hard part is establishing a shared understanding that some issues you'd like to discuss will always end up being inconvenient to the powers that be. Most Chinese citizens I've seen discuss the issue argue that they're simply immune to the problem; that as long as you're a responsible person just trying to live a good life, the government won'…

True. Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. For one, how do you know the things you being fed are real? And what are you going to do if it's real/not real? Just venting? If you don't like the leadership, there are plenty of other ways to improve that, but talking is the cheapest.

And that all sounds well and good to most people, until it's their dad who the leaders decide should be shipped off to a re-education camp. But it's too late at that point; even if I go around yelling to everyone that my dad's not a terrorist, they know just as well as I once did that yelling at government leaders means I'm a cheap agitator with nothing better to do.
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