Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function • Hacker News Board

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#171

Post by grawprog » Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #168

grawprog wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I couldn't stand the freebase nicotine juice. A hit off some 10mg juice made me feel like I'd just taken a fat haul on a cigar. My mouth started watering, I started twitching a bit and felt like was going to puke, then immediately i started craving a smoke. The nicotine salts don't feel that way, even with the 36mg. It actually takes the cravings away without really giving me that nicotine rush. In a mont…

There is a lot of difference in the quality and composition of freebase juice. The differences between vaporizers is also massive. I eventually settled on a juice with a coffee caramel flavor that smelled like someone just made a cake. Go and try several combinations in a store that is specialized. The Juul is Big Tobacco still giving you an old fashion hit of nicotine. Edit: if you are located in Europe this was my…

I don't smoke the juul vapes, they're not the only company that makes nicotine salt juice. Nicotine salts are made by adding an acid to freebase nicotine, which is still made originally via extracting nicotine from tobacco and processing it with ammonia. If you smoke nicotine, you're inevitably supporting large tobacco producers, there's not really much way around that.

Then there's the matter of, freebasing an alkaloid makes it more bioavailable to your brain, you may be smoking lower concentrations, but your body's absorbing more nicotine per puff.

Kind of like the difference between snorting coke or smoking crack. Cocaine hydrochloride is cocaine in salt form, crack is the freebase form. Both are addictive nasty drugs, but with crack, you need less to get high, the high lasts longer and in the long term tends to really fuck people up from what I've seen.

Also, the first time I ever heard of freebase nicotine, was when I was reading about how it was added into cigarettes to increase the addictiveness and rush you get.

That cake flavoured one still sounds unappealing. I'd really prefer some kind of savoury or smokey flavour. I've never really enjoyed sweet things.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#172

Post by jodrellblank » Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

bobwaycott wrote: post #123

ceejayoz wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear that e-cigs are better than smoking. It also seems clear that e-cig manufacturers are hoping to hook young non-smokers to expand their market. Both are valuable bits of info, but "e-cigs do confirmed damage" is extremely important info from a public health perspective.

> It also seems clear that e-cig manufacturers are hoping to hook young non-smokers to expand their market. This is mentioned a lot, but I find it questionable. I’ve never seen an ad that made me feel like Joe Camel or the Marlboro Man did when I was a kid. My teenagers haven’t ever thought vaping was cool based on ads or plenty of people doing it. This sounds too much like a general truism of capitalist enterprise—a…

> Maybe we should just ban advertising to people so no company can try to hook young people on their products to expand their markets.

Yes, we should.

Advertising works. It influences you, affects your behaviour. To extract money from you. For someone else's benefit. Without your prior informed consent.

We should ban it.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#173

Post by lowdose » Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 11:39 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #171

lowdose wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of difference in the quality and composition of freebase juice. The differences between vaporizers is also massive. I eventually settled on a juice with a coffee caramel flavor that smelled like someone just made a cake. Go and try several combinations in a store that is specialized. The Juul is Big Tobacco still giving you an old fashion hit of nicotine. Edit: if you are located in Europe this was my…

I don't smoke the juul vapes, they're not the only company that makes nicotine salt juice. Nicotine salts are made by adding an acid to freebase nicotine, which is still made originally via extracting nicotine from tobacco and processing it with ammonia. If you smoke nicotine, you're inevitably supporting large tobacco producers, there's not really much way around that. Then there's the matter of, freebasing an alkal…

I have seen the effects of crack also from nearby but the effects usually lasts from 5–10 minutes. Snorting quality cocaine last an hour.

I'm not a chemist so you good be spot on in the information you provide. I'm just sharing my positive experience with freebase and hope more people can quit smoking.

Taste is such a personal thing, I don't like sweets either and this flavor was delivered by accident because the store made a mistake.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#174

Post by caymanjim » Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 11:59 PM UTC

Jarwain wrote: post #170

01100011 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicotine only makes me sick. I've tried gums, vapes, and nicotine salt pouches. I smoke a tobacco pipe when I want to relax. There are MAOIs in tobacco smoke. I'm not sure that's what makes me feel calm though.

It could be the interaction between the MAOIs and the nicotine. Or more accurately, the MAOIs altering how your body handles nicotine.

There are sibling comments discussing MAOIs, and I've heard about them before in relation to smoking. It makes me wonder if MAOIs alone would be better for smoking cessation. I don't think I'm all that addicted to the nicotine itself. There are plenty of other supposedly-addictive stimulants that I can take or leave at will and with no feelings of withdrawal, and nicotine does nothing to alleviate cigarette withdrawal for me, so I'm not sure it's even a necessary component. There are some NIH studies about MAOIs and smoking, but I'm not going to link them because I find them incomprehensibly dense.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#175

Post by rapjr9 » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:18 AM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #139

abstractbarista wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a point which needs more exploring. Seems to me most damage from smoking is all the crap in smoking. The chemical nicotine - by itself - transiently raises BP, feels nice, and that's about it. It's also only a part of the addictiveness of smoking. Probably a small part, as everyone I know who has consumed nicotine in any form has no trouble without it if they vape, but often shows discomfort/restle…

Is there any research on what other chemicals might be addictive?

There is evidence that some additives enhance addiction and that others suppress the side effects from smoking (coughing, burnt throat, feeling ill, etc.) so that when someone quits smoking they have essentially stopped treating themselves for all these side effects, which then appear and make the person feel miserable. Smoking instantly relieves symptoms again (for a while):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/

"Our findings indicated that more than 100 of 599 documented cigarette additives have pharmacological actions that camouflage the odor of environmental tobacco smoke emitted from cigarettes, enhance or maintain nicotine delivery, could increase the addictiveness of cigarettes, and mask symptoms and illnesses associated with smoking behaviors."

So it appears that although nicotine is mildly addictive, commercial tobacco was engineered to suppress the side effects of smoking which essentially made it much more (technically) addictive. Hence quitting tobacco is much more difficult than quitting nicotine because you are also quitting the additives which are suppressing cough and hiding the feeling of illness smoking causes.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#176

Post by JakeTheAndroid » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:22 AM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #75

dumbfoundded wrote: post #27

If you believe E-Cigs are harmless, there's an easy experiment you can do for yourself. Go on a run, time yourself. The next day, vape for 30 min and then go on the same run. This is what got me to personally switch away from E-Cigs. Vaping would add an additional 30-sec to 1-min per mile on my runs. I try to only use patches or gum now. Still not great but it's a lot better if you're trying to stay in shape. That be…

> vape for 30 min That seems like an excessively long time. I don't vape, but I have a few acquaintances who do. None vape for 30 minutes at a time - typically 5-10. I imagine if you inhaled cold water vapor for a solid 30 minute time frame and ran, you'd see a similarly bad outcome. Doesn't mean it's bad for you.

I vape pretty heavy. If I am working from home, I can hit it a few times every 20 or so minutes. Thinking about vaping for 30 minutes straight seems unenjoyable.

I also work out, and often vape was I walk into the gym. I would say the thing I notice is that my heart rate is already a bit higher than I'd prefer. But once I started working out, my resting heart rate went down, and my breathing got way better. So, I'm not sure how much of that is attributed to vaping vs lack of fitness.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#177

Post by tonyarkles » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:30 AM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #174

Jarwain wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be the interaction between the MAOIs and the nicotine. Or more accurately, the MAOIs altering how your body handles nicotine.

There are sibling comments discussing MAOIs, and I've heard about them before in relation to smoking. It makes me wonder if MAOIs alone would be better for smoking cessation. I don't think I'm all that addicted to the nicotine itself. There are plenty of other supposedly-addictive stimulants that I can take or leave at will and with no feelings of withdrawal, and nicotine does nothing to alleviate cigarette withdrawa…

I don’t remember what family of antidepressant Bupropion (Wellbutrin/Zyban) is, but it helped me immensely the first time I quit. I literally just woke up one day (a few days before my target quit date) and had no craving at all.

It also made me a little bit manic, and weaning off it sucked, but it worked well in general.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#178

Post by rkimmel » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:31 AM UTC

I’m tired of vaping companies claiming it’s safe. Glad the truth is finally getting out. The only safe alternative to cigarettes is to not smoke at all.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#179

Post by JakeTheAndroid » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:32 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #148

lowdose wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juul's creators increased the nicotine because they felt other vapes on the market couldn't compare to the sensations delivered by regular cigarettes. The nicotine salts in Juul pods are a type of nicotine that supposedly feels more like a cigarette when inhaled, as opposed to other vapes that use freebase nicotine. Philip Morris strategy to create confusion is obviously working. Don't buy from big tobacco if your go…

Personally, I couldn't stand the freebase nicotine juice. A hit off some 10mg juice made me feel like I'd just taken a fat haul on a cigar. My mouth started watering, I started twitching a bit and felt like was going to puke, then immediately i started craving a smoke. The nicotine salts don't feel that way, even with the 36mg. It actually takes the cravings away without really giving me that nicotine rush. In a mont…

What did you hit it out of? 10 is really high man, I am not surprised. I remember my friend got a sub-ohm tank when they first started getting popular, and put 26 nic in there. We nearly died it felt like. If you were vaping off a sub-ohm tank at 10 nic, that's a massive dosage of nic in one hit. I vape 6 and it's often too high for people who vape.

If you were vaping off one of those little pens, then 10 makes a bit more sense, and maybe even a bit low. But, those never really hit right for me. I cough when I hit a Juul though, so idk.

Re: Acute Effects of Electronic Cigarette Aerosol Inhalation on Vascular Function

#180

Post by bobwaycott » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:37 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #172

bobwaycott wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also seems clear that e-cig manufacturers are hoping to hook young non-smokers to expand their market. This is mentioned a lot, but I find it questionable. I’ve never seen an ad that made me feel like Joe Camel or the Marlboro Man did when I was a kid. My teenagers haven’t ever thought vaping was cool based on ads or plenty of people doing it. This sounds too much like a general truism of capitalist enterprise—a…

> Maybe we should just ban advertising to people so no company can try to hook young people on their products to expand their markets. Yes, we should. Advertising works. It influences you, affects your behaviour. To extract money from you. For someone else's benefit. Without your prior informed consent. We should ban it.

Yeah, exactly. That’s what I’m driving at.

At the same time, I find it a bizarre bit of cognitive dissonance when people blame the product, and not the people in the company behind it. In most cases, at least. The product isn’t pushing itself on the public. It’s people doing that work, and people should be held responsible for it. Yes, there are bad products—but they aren’t making themselves.

It’s strange that we find it so easy to think up ways to ban a product, but never consider banning the advertising that pushes it on everyone and convinces them they just have to have it.