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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#51

Post by ryanobjc »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

I guess it doesn't hurt that people who make too much rhetorical noise, tend to find themselves in all sorts of trouble. Hard to criticize in that circumstance! As you point out, if you are on the receiving end of "good fortune" you might have a lot of incentives at questioning that fortune.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#52

Post by markus_zhang »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#53

Post by aidenn0 »

msie wrote: post #18

We have the same problem with the extreme left and right in the US although I am more annoyed with the MAGA supporters out there.

This is what annoys me most with the political system today. If you are opposed to open borders then the left calls you racist. If you talk about anthropogenic global warming, the right accuses you of spreading fake news.

Everything has become so partisan, nobody wants to cede even a millimeter of ground to the other side, so taking the most extreme position has become the norm in debate. It is strategic, (if you want to prevent government regulation on global warming, spending years debating on whether or not it even exists rather than on what the solutions will be is rather effective), but very disingenuous.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#54

Post by avs733 »

msie wrote: post #14
socrates1998 wrote: post #6

Chinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy. I am not sure that these international Chinese students are good for our universities. I feel like the universities sold out to them because they pay full price tuition. This is latest example of them not understanding even basic behavior in western country.

A democracy has to tolerate differences in opinion.

no, it doesn't.

Like literally the purpose of a democracy is to establish government by norms and the establishment of those norms as laws. A democracy exists explicilty to bound law making within a set range of socially acceptable public disourse.

To expend a strawman, Jeffrey Epstein seems to think sexual acts with human beings this country views as unable to consent - that is a difference in opinion, but he ended up in jail rather than tolerated. Invite NAMBLA to your next city council meeting and see how that goes.

We don't have slaves, but the greeks and romans who had closer to a true democracy surely did. The idea of owning or not owning slaves was tolerated, and debated, in their time - it wouldn't be in our modern democracy.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#55

Post by srcmap »

appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

You should also ask US State Department and United Nation that question?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#56

Post by wrs »

markus_zhang wrote: post #47
1propionyl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China had acted in any way inappropriately. As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group. It was eye o…

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

"I can't imagine any other government could do better." Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#57

Post by ryanobjc »

markus_zhang wrote: post #47
1propionyl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China had acted in any way inappropriately. As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group. It was eye o…

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

So "better" entirely depends on your values, right?

Ever heard of the phrase "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees?"

Not everyone shares the ethos that a full belly is happiness and goodness. There is more to life than mere material goods. What makes a life worth living even? I guess if you have a job all is good, at least as per your line of argumentation.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#58

Post by markus_zhang »

Joakal wrote: post #43
bgee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China . Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainla…

The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to China, and more. Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China. The protestors know if…

Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot.

That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#59

Post by codeswap »

appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

To be fair "Taiwan simply another province of China." is the official positive of the Taiwan government also

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#60

Post by Joakal »

markus_zhang wrote: post #47
1propionyl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China had acted in any way inappropriately. As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group. It was eye o…

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

How do you know it's doing good when they have a reputation for censor and change narratives to suit their agenda?
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