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IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

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Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#301
post #273

Abolish all of the tax code, pass a federal sales tax, almost entirely do away with the IRS, much more efficient - the end.

This would be the absolute fastest way to shift the federal tax burden from the top 20% to the bottom 50% and would likely cause consumer spending to plummet resulting in a recession. It's also a very nice way to punish lower through upper middle class savers. This may be an ideal solution in theory, but it would likely be devastating in practice.

>This would be the absolute fastest way to shift the federal tax burden from the top 20% to the bottom 50%

Bezos bought a 65 million dollar jet... at 20% federal sales tax that would have been 13 million dollars in revenue. He would pay more in taxes in one purchase than I'll earn in gross income in 10-13 lifetimes.

I paid a bit over $8000 in w2 employment taxes last year (21.8% of my gross income, with a 20% sales tax I'd have MORE money and yes, I would buy less crap I don't need and use once), in one purchase Bezos would have paid 1974x what I paid last year.

Never mind that under most federal sales tax proposals, a flat-rate rebate is issued monthly, quarterly or annually to everyone which greatly softens the blow for the lowest earners.

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, we've been in a state for decades where a $1 increase in IRS budget results in more than $1 in income, yet their budget has continued to be cut. I'm all for closing down those well-known loopholes, but that doesn't mean there won't be loopholes, or just people/companies not paying what they owe. At this stage, those of us that ARE paying our taxes are the ones being taken advantage of.

> And yet, we've been in a state for decades where a $1 increase in IRS budget results in more than $1 in income, yet their budget has continued to be cut. That's because the point where $1 in IRS spending brings in $1 in government revenue is well past the optimal level. First, it's not just government spending that matters. If you have the IRS spend $.60 and the taxpayer spend $.60 to recover $1, you're spending a…

I'd be more receptive to this argument if the IRS was giving normal taxpayers some sort of easy file card. Since when is the IRS supposed to care what taxpayers pay to comply?

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's easily countered by having franchises and not subsidiaries

And that's easily countered by saying, "total profits, including subsidiaries and franchises." See, we can play this game all day. The fundamental point is this: just because people might break a law (directly or in spirit) is not an argument against having said law.

Except if you do that, you destroy tons of legitimate restaurant companies.

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we do this for other types of law enforcement? Local police pay for themselves in traffic and parking tickets, among other fees. So maybe we should keep adding cops until we've maximized fine revenue. Or maybe marginal profit isn't a good way to measure law enforcement...

I certainly agree with you that it isn't a good model for local law enforcement. The main reason being that there are many areas where we expect police to exercise some discretion. Speed limits being the main one that comes to mind—for whatever reason, speed limits are set at a level that the majority of the population do not follow to the letter, and we consider it unreasonable for police to issue tickets for drivin…

Maybe offtopic, but why should we expect police to exercise discretion? That's how you end up with disproportionate crime being prosecuted in neighborhoods of color.

I think laws should be simple and enforced. For example, raise speed limits so they are high enough that nobody has a reason to routinely break them, then draconian enforcement. Old white Grandpa weaving around should get the same penalty as young Black guy weaving through traffic.

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#305
post #283
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your logic that a dollar is a dollar and it doesn't matter why the government gave it to them? If so, I don't agree.

What are you trying to say? He is remarking on the ignorance / hypocrisy of the woman, who laments when other people receiving government subsidies as "welfare queens" disregarding the fact that she is also receiving government subsidies. Likely due to her own biases, that her subsidy is worthwhile while another person's isn't for whatever reason.

Not all government subsidies are the same. Someone could say farm subsidies are good while welfare is bad. That's not hypocritical.

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'costs' to the taxpayer are in taxes they already owe and should have paid though. No, they're what the taxpayer has to spend on accountants and lawyers when they get audited even though they haven't done anything wrong. Or have done something wrong, but by mistake, and then the government consumes $1 in total resources to correct a $.90 mistake. > Perhaps the increased enforcement will encourage fewer people a…

Your first point is well taken. I hadn't considered that aspect in writing my response, but I totally agree. I run a small business myself and certainly would not relish an audit, both due to direct but also productivity costs. I'm less sure about the second point, specifically that there's no low hanging fruit there. ISTM if that were true, then investment in enforcement would not show such a large immediate profit.…

> ISTM if that were true, then investment in enforcement would not show such a large immediate profit. Doesn't that by definition demonstrate that there is low-hanging fruit?

You're talking about two different things. One is what you can get directly by auditing people, the other is the deterrent effect from doing more audits. The second has nothing to do with how profitable the first is. It may have no effect at all, if ordinary taxpayers aren't even aware of how many audits are happening. It could easily have a negative effect for people who are paying attention to it, because they respond by spending more on accountants, which increases overhead (negative externality) and is at least as likely to uncover deductions they're not taking but could than deductions they are taking but shouldn't (no increase and potential decrease in government revenue).

As for the first, consider how the "profit making" nature of audits actually works. The IRS spends thousands of dollars auditing many people who haven't done anything wrong, and causes the same people to have to spend thousands of dollars themselves to deal with the audit -- or more, if the principals of a business get bogged down dealing with it, it can easily cost the business more than it costs the IRS. That's all pure overhead and leads to nothing.

Then one of the audits out of many actually finds a mistake, and it's a business with a few million in annual revenue that has unintentionally underpaid its taxes by 2%, but has been making the same mistake for years. That nets the IRS something like half a million dollars, having spent 20% of that to find it, and caused the audited businesses to spend a further 50% of that on accountants and lawyers. So you create $3.5M in overhead to collect $5M, costing you $1M and the taxpayer $2.5M, but that cost is a deduction to the business, which costs you a further $.875M. So you've created $3.5M in overhead to collect $3.125M for actual programs. That is an extremely bad level of efficiency -- more money is going to overhead than programs. But they call this a 5:1 ratio of profit to expense -- which is still pretty bad (20% overhead) -- because they don't count the cost to the business nor the cost to the government when the business takes that cost as a deduction.

Meanwhile all of the businesses that were audited, even the ones that weren't doing anything wrong, had to go out and hire those accountants, who probably found a bunch of deductions some of them weren't taking even though they could. So the next thing that happens is that the treasury takes in a million a year less every year going forward because they induced a bunch of businesses to spend more on tax accounting. That isn't an inefficiency, they're entitled to it under the law, but it's something to keep in mind for the people who only care about government revenue and not the overhead created on the business side.

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet, we've been in a state for decades where a $1 increase in IRS budget results in more than $1 in income, yet their budget has continued to be cut. That's because the point where $1 in IRS spending brings in $1 in government revenue is well past the optimal level. First, it's not just government spending that matters. If you have the IRS spend $.60 and the taxpayer spend $.60 to recover $1, you're spending a…

I'd be more receptive to this argument if the IRS was giving normal taxpayers some sort of easy file card. Since when is the IRS supposed to care what taxpayers pay to comply?

So we shouldn't care about overhead costs imposed on taxpayers because we don't care about overhead costs imposed on taxpayers?

If you're not aware, the reason we don't have "some sort of easy file card" isn't any choice by the IRS, it's a choice by Congress at the behest of the tax preparation industry.

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence the relatively easy in the comment you are replying to.

How do you propose basic services you use every day (i.e. infrastructure) are paid for if not through taxes?

pay as you go, like tolls

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be more receptive to this argument if the IRS was giving normal taxpayers some sort of easy file card. Since when is the IRS supposed to care what taxpayers pay to comply?

So we shouldn't care about overhead costs imposed on taxpayers because we don't care about overhead costs imposed on taxpayers? If you're not aware, the reason we don't have "some sort of easy file card" isn't any choice by the IRS, it's a choice by Congress at the behest of the tax preparation industry.

Yes, and Congress is also the one who makes decisions about funding audits, no?

Re: IRS budget cuts cost $34.3B in lost revenue from big business

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the assertion is that if Apple has to pay $10B/year more in taxes, than they will raise the price of their products $10B/year and keep a fixed profit, that assumes there is complete price elasticity. No, I'm not assuming that. The quantity sold will decrease, of course, if the price increases. That is a hidden cost paid by prospective buyers who must now do without the good, complementing the more visible cost p…

On the first point, the company I have worked for for the past 15 years has had wildly different ROIs during different phases of its life. Assuming that ROI is a fixed quantity will lead to a wrong conclusion. On the second point, yes, free oil to Exxon will lower the price of gas, and that is a benefit to the consumer. But you assume 100% of that benefit is given to the consumer. In reality, corporations keep as muc…

I did say that there is short-term variation in ROI, in particular based on risk. However all economic ventures in a competitive market do tend toward zero expected economic return, i.e. an expected ROI (including factors like risk) commiserate with their opportunity cost. Corporations obviously try to maximize their profits but they don't operate in a vacuum. If they consistently earn higher-than-normal profits then that will attract competition, pushing prices (and profits) back down toward the margin.
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