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Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

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181–190 of 215 posts

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#181
Counting citations is a rubbish metric in general. It's supposed to be a proxy for reserach quality but it's so easy to "game" (in the sense of optimising for citation count, rather than research quality) that a high number of citations doesn't mean anything.

Neither does a low number of citations. For example, my field is small and kind of esoteric, so we don't get lots of citations either from the outside or the inside (one of the most influential papers in the field has... 286 citations on Semantic Scholar; since 1995).

With a field as small as a couple hundred researchers it's also very easy to give the appearance of a citation mill. Given that papers will focus on a very specific subject in the purview of the field, it is inevitable that each researcher who studies that specific subject will cite the same handful of researchers' papers over and over again- and be herself cited by them, since she's now publishing on the subject that interests them.

As to self-citations, like Ioannidis himself says there are legitimate reasons, for instance, a PhD student publishing with her thesis advisor as a co-author. The student will most probably be working on subjects that the advisor has already published on and in fact will most likely be extending the advisor's prior work. So the advisor's prior work will be cited in the student's papers.

So I'm really not sure what we're learning in the general case by counting citations, other than that a certain paper has a certain number of citations.

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#182
post #56

As someone who now works in astronomy, I'm not at all surprised at the high self-citation rate for the field. It is true that a lot of papers are published by large consortiums. For example, at LSST (where I work), if you have been working on the project for 2 years, you are considered a "builder" and added as an author to all major project wide papers. Those papers, which tend to be long and full of great stuff, are…

>> To be honest, I find all the metric gaming about number of papers and citations to be ridiculous.

That's the main issue, isn't it? Citations are a bit like tokens that can be exchanged for funding, so they become a commodity that people are incentivised to hoard and trade. That is just the worse kind of environment to promote good quality research. The only thing it can promote is ...lots of citations.

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#183
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two economists are walking down the street. One sees a $20 bill and starts to bend over to pick it up. The other economist says "Don't bother - if it were really worth $20, someone else would have picked it up." There's countless numbers of scientists that made great strides working on topics others deemed rediculous. Heck, many of the Nobel prize winners were ridiculed by their colleagues as borderline wack-jobs at…

> Heck, many of the Nobel prize winners were ridiculed by their colleagues as borderline wack-jobs at the time they were working on their research. Even after winning the prize, some still were with their later work (Crick's search for consciousness comes to mind, and why it would be so worthless a search does not). Do you have any good examples of being considered wack-jobs before their winning?

Kary Mullis?

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#184
post #21

The core problem here is that universities think that citation statistics are a useful metric to evaluate the quality of the work of a scientist. There's plenty of evidence that this is not the case or that even the reverse may be the case [1], but this idea refuses to die. [1]

It sucks as a metric but it does have some rough correlation in most cases, and I'm not aware of any better easily measurable metric - if you have one in mind, it'd be great to hear. The alternative of having a bureaucrat "simply judge quality" IMHO is even worse, even less objective, and even more prone to being gamed. The main problem is that there is an objective need (or desire?) by various stakeholders to have s…

Blaming the authors for demonstrating the deep flaws in this metric is certainly wrong however. This article is almost accusing some rigorous scientists, who choose to publish often and diligently reference their prior work to encourage fact checking and peer review, as frauds.

I disagree with the assertion that bad metrics should be used if there are no alternatives. Bad metrics give wrong answers, and only the illusion of meaningful information. The most common use of bad metrics is to lie to people, and it isn't the scientists using the metrics but the organizations that employ them.

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#186
post #168
post #56

As someone who now works in astronomy, I'm not at all surprised at the high self-citation rate for the field. It is true that a lot of papers are published by large consortiums. For example, at LSST (where I work), if you have been working on the project for 2 years, you are considered a "builder" and added as an author to all major project wide papers. Those papers, which tend to be long and full of great stuff, are…

This probably varies by field, but the "large project" thing can be gamed too. So, for example, in biomedicine you often have lots of people on a paper who might only read a draft, make some trivial suggestions, and then be added as an author. As a result, there's this pressure for large groups to form, where everyone is added and everyone can cite each other. This doesn't mean the projects are bad, but it does lead…

Academics have basically reinvented the webring.

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#187
post #170
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably varies by field, but the "large project" thing can be gamed too. So, for example, in biomedicine you often have lots of people on a paper who might only read a draft, make some trivial suggestions, and then be added as an author. As a result, there's this pressure for large groups to form, where everyone is added and everyone can cite each other. This doesn't mean the projects are bad, but it does lead…

I don't disagree with what your saying, but I think LSST's builder concept is actually quite amazing and the opposite side of that coin. For people building the telescope (think hardware, software, logistics, everything before the science can be done), many of whom are not academics, and don't typically get authorship or write papers, it's great to get credit for working on the project in a formal, public way. You do…

Wouldn't it make more sense to adopt the way Hollywood does crediting by then crediting everyone but with a note on how they contributed?

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#188
post #21

The core problem here is that universities think that citation statistics are a useful metric to evaluate the quality of the work of a scientist. There's plenty of evidence that this is not the case or that even the reverse may be the case [1], but this idea refuses to die. [1]

It sucks as a metric but it does have some rough correlation in most cases, and I'm not aware of any better easily measurable metric - if you have one in mind, it'd be great to hear. The alternative of having a bureaucrat "simply judge quality" IMHO is even worse, even less objective, and even more prone to being gamed. The main problem is that there is an objective need (or desire?) by various stakeholders to have s…

How about page rank instead of only using number of citations

Re: Hundreds of extreme self-citing scientists revealed in new database

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh.

not everyone is in the same mindset, no need to be a jerk about it.

Is "Woosh" really being that much of a jerk? It's a reference to https://www.xkcd.com/1627/
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