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China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#11
TL;DR at bottom.

While impressive, "how many satellites you can see over a major city" is not an accurate way to judge a GPS satellite network.

To understand why, you have to understand how GPS works. Basically, each GPS has a super accurate clock on board. These are all synced up. These satellites transmit a signal regularly on predetermined schedules.

Your phone or car or whatever else is using GPS listens for these signals. Your device knows when exactly all the satellites sent their signal. It listens and counts how long it takes to receive each signal. With the length of time it takes to receive each signal from each satellite, it can pinpoint your location.

For basic operations you require three satellites for an approximate location.

For precise operations you need line of sight to four satellites, as the fourth enables you to calculate your altitude.

At no point do you need more than 4 in sight.

Why this is important is because the U.S. satellite constellation has 32 currently operating GPS satellites. In addition to those, we have 8 that are currently in space, ready to turn on, but they aren't because there's no reason to have them on.

There's no doubt in my mind these satellites have additional secret reasons for being up there. That's the only reason they'd need that many.

TL;DR:While they do have more active satellites, it's pointless for navigation purposes. Additionally, counting the backup satellites the U.S. Has operational but currently turned off in "standby" mode, we still have more.

EDIT: Not everything I stated is completely accurate. See comments below for some clarifications. Make sure to upvote them if you found them helpful.

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#13
post #7

> When using BeiDou for car navigation, the receiver could theoretically transmit the car's location to a satellite in orbit, said Dean Cheng, a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. Details on this? What does "theoretically" mean? Are there known protocols for this? Implementations? A lot of things could "theoretically" be done but aren't in practice.

Seems that the experimental Beidou-1 worked that way, and that Galileo is also able to work that way [1].

However, this does not seem to be how the deployed version of Beidou works, and this does not seem required with Galileo either.

I also note that Qualcomm produces Beidou receiver chips so these are under American control.

Overall I have the feeling that the article is trying hard to whip up fears over Beidou...

[1] https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/30839/is-two-way-c...

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#14

TL;DR at bottom. While impressive, "how many satellites you can see over a major city" is not an accurate way to judge a GPS satellite network. To understand why, you have to understand how GPS works. Basically, each GPS has a super accurate clock on board. These are all synced up. These satellites transmit a signal regularly on predetermined schedules. Your phone or car or whatever else is using GPS listens for thes…

> At no point do you need more than 4 in sight.

Unless you are measuring something with high precision over long periods of time. Like dam flexing or ground shifts.

The more sats you have, the better you'll be at eliminating the signal noise (due to the ionosphere transition and what not).

Also, regarding this -

> "how many satellites you can see over a major city" is not an accurate way to judge a GPS satellite network.

You are completely missing their point - you are in the _city_, a place with tall buildings that give you just a slice of the sky. So the more satellites you have above, the better you chances you will see _enough_ from where you are standing.

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#15
Wouldn't it be nice instead of countries an open academic agency launch a series of open source satellites for locations. Hopefully likes of apple, Google, Microsoft, alibaba, benz, BMW, Toyota, Amazon, Qualcomm, European space agency can fund it.

But I doubt it will happen as it's considered more strategic investment with military implications. But I am still hopeful like internet(which was designed for military purpose but now controlled by civilian authorities), locations can be free off selfish national interests.

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#16
post #7

> When using BeiDou for car navigation, the receiver could theoretically transmit the car's location to a satellite in orbit, said Dean Cheng, a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. Details on this? What does "theoretically" mean? Are there known protocols for this? Implementations? A lot of things could "theoretically" be done but aren't in practice.

I doubt this can be done with a standard "GPS" omnidirectional antenna. This would require a lot of power.

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#17

Wouldn't it be nice instead of countries an open academic agency launch a series of open source satellites for locations. Hopefully likes of apple, Google, Microsoft, alibaba, benz, BMW, Toyota, Amazon, Qualcomm, European space agency can fund it. But I doubt it will happen as it's considered more strategic investment with military implications. But I am still hopeful like internet(which was designed for military pur…

Something SpaceX could consider? Given their ambition with Satellite Internet backbone.

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#18
This doesn't make sense. How can there be more satellites in the Eastern hemisphere than in the Western? Navigation satellites are in low earth orbit: they go around the earth every couple of hours. I could understand if one constellation had better polar coverage while another has better equatorial, but an east-west divide isn't physically possible (unless the Chinese are turning their satellites off when over the Americas).

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#19
Isn't the proliferation of multiple GNSS constellations actually quite positive thing? The smartphone geolocation chips seem to have no problem receiving signals from all constellations. So effectively this competition between the systems allows for denser coverage of location satellites. This in turn should enable more accuracy and faster location acquisition even with limited sky visibility.

In security sense, it seems that the situation virtually rules out the possibility of selectively denying some party GNSS access. So if you want to make your adversary location-blind, you'll have to accept losing location data yourself, right?

Re: China's version of GPS now has more satellites than US original

#20
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the article the say accuracy is coming down to 1m vs 3-5 for other GPS In which areas?

> As of June 28, Chinese satellites were observed more frequently than GPS satellites in 130 of 195 countries (U.N. member states plus the Vatican and Palestine). More than 20 BeiDou satellites were observed over mainland China.

I don't get something you have satellites of glonass, gps and beidou what's stopping anyone from getting better accuracy using all 3 at the same time.
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