Information operations directed at Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#321

Post by Aeolun » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:24 AM UTC

ospider wrote: post #251

adammenges wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t make sense. The slaving government in ancient Egypt was supported for a long time. Just because a form of government exists doesn’t mean it isn’t abusive to some of it’s people or to other countries.

I'm not saying that the Chinese government is a good government. But a slaving government IS better than warlords. And historically speaking, the current government did unify China in 1949, which is a very important thing in Chinese culture. If we were to overthrow the Chinese government, can we get a better tomorrow for the Chinese people? The west have show us what happened in Middle East. Clearly, wars are not wha…

I don’t think that, practically, countries have often gone from authoritarian to democratic without violence.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#322

Post by dwd » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:25 AM UTC

This is an even more disturbing trend...

https://www.news.com.au/national/chinese-police-cars-parked-...

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#323

Post by echevil » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #192

kmonsen wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what is missing in most the the China and HN discussions is that HN is not blocked by the great firewall, so it is much easier for regular people living in China to participate. They will naturally have more pro-China views. Just like residents of every country will have more positive views of that country. And when that country is criticized they will be even more defensive and reflectively pro what is criti…

As far as I can tell, that is only a small minority of the commenters with such views. Far more are people in Western countries who have personal, familial, educational, or work ties to China, or who had experiences in China that gave them a different perspective. In a way, though, we're talking about the same thing, because most of this follows from human loyalties—to family, tribe, country, etc.—that all of us have…

Just to share some perspective as a native Chinese living in US for anyone interested:

- Most of immigrants from China after 2000 holds pro-China views, and there's strong tendency to become more pro-China after living in US for some time, after having full exposure to US media and getting to know how things really work in US.

- It's probably common to see HN accounts that comment mostly on China related issues. I don't have stats, but this is very likely, because when immigrants like us read HN comments upon these issues, it's usually as irritating as lots of you reading far-right pro Trump comments.

- When people question if an account is genuine just because they have pro-China voice, it's just confirming how hypocritical western "freedom of press" is, and pushing us towards more pro-China.

- HN is still fairly unpopular among Chinese tech immigrants, otherwise you'd be seeing a lot more sincere pro-China comments here.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#324

Post by profalseidol » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:28 AM UTC

kweks wrote: post #184

avip wrote: post #95

My YT overlord lately decided I should watch Jackie Chan commentates about the situation in Hong-Kong [0]. I was very surprised to see the English comments almost unanimously support China. Would have expected the opposite sentiment. [edit: stupid me, the uploader is CGTN, a well-known state propoganda channel] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7rIg49I0yI

Jackie Chan has a very pro-China stance. In his autobiography, he mentions that he is proud to be Chinese, and makes several associations to Chinese culture, seemingly over Hong Kong. I found it to be a curious position, seeing as he is adored by Hong Kongers, and always seemed to identify as / with HK.

You do know that Hong Kong was really part of China right? It was taken by the British Empire in 1842 by destroying China in the First Opium War. When the British finally gave it back to China in 1997, a lot of the non-chinese moved out of HK.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that "Hong Kongers" and Jackie Chan are Chinese.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#325

Post by Retric » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:31 AM UTC

bobjordan wrote: post #273

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith. We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we…

"In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self-governance." American here using a VPN from China, not an operative. My view after 10 years in China with businesses in China and Hong Kong, is that it is useful to think about Hong Kong similarly to a USA state. It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get…

> Violent crime as measured in murders per 100K of population in the USA is a magnitude worse than in China, the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA.

Assuming you believe the State statistics that could be true. However, their is plenty of evidence many official numbers are manipulated and this is likely to be one of them.

Which is the issue, even people living in China really have no idea what the Chinese populous thinks about most things. When people fear to speak the truth, what you hear has little to do with what they think. Private comments are frequently at odds with public statements.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#326

Post by Aeolun » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:31 AM UTC

LilBytes wrote: post #282

chrischen wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, I'm not arguing anything, so there is no straw man. Obviously it's not the only form of government, but we are told that it's the only one that's acceptable. There's no objective evaluation and consideration of any alternative political systems. You prove my point. The idea that it's the fairest and best is also subjective. A government gets its authority from the people, and if the Chinese grant authority t…

I'm not an advocate for the US Political system. Having grown up in Europe and moved to Australia. Therefore your assumptions that I'd use the US as the benchmark I set for my democratic wishes is misguided and the majority of your argument falls flat as a consequence. Democracy allows the very thing your discouraging, _choice_. Your democracy or rather the US democracy is not my own. And for the arguments you've mad…

Clearly it is an alternative to democracy. It’s existed more or less successfully for some 80 years now.

The question is if it’s really a place any of us (who grew up in a democracy) would want to live.

The ethos of the CCP is just fundamentally incompatible with my own worldview, even though I can admit to their effectiveness so far.

I’m not really willing to accept the existence of such a country in my world either.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#327

Post by oefrha » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:34 AM UTC

ddlsmurf wrote: post #219

apo wrote: post #216

> We are disclosing a significant state-backed information operation focused on the situation in Hong Kong, specifically the protest movement and their calls for political change. Two points: 1. The post presents no evidence that this is a "state-backed" operation. 2. Censorship seems like a wonderful tool when applied to your opponents. That support dries up pretty quickly when the censor targets you.

Is there another actor than the state in China that can get unfiltered mainland IPs ?

If you use Google Fi’s cellular data in China, you can access sites typically blocked by GFW (source: first hand experience). So I assume the answer is yes. Not sure which entities have such access though.

Edit: IIRC some local friends from Peking University and Tsinghua University once told me that they could use Google and stuff (also typically out of reach) from their college dorms.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#328

Post by aussieguy1234 » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:35 AM UTC

This amounts to cyberwarfare being directed from China at its own people in Hong Kong.

The posts were designed to sow political discord, not calm things down. Governments are generally interested in promoting peace and stability. But not this one, apparently.

Its good to see Facebook and Twitter coordinated with each other in blocking the bad actors, rather than tackling the issue individually. I'd like to see more of that in the future directed at Russian government sponsored troll bots, Nazis and the like. Since these kinds of attacks are generally done over more than one social network, sharing basic info like IP addresses etc could be a good start.

These people are banned from Libr, the social network I built to replace Tumblr (https://librapp.com).

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#329

Post by profalseidol » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:37 AM UTC

rickycook wrote: post #284

daveheq wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US mainstream media is bought and paid for by corporations, who don't have the public good in mind, but maximizing profit at the expense of all else including reporting on corruption, oligarchy, and environmental abuse. The government should not control the media, but neither should advertisers.

true, and that’s definitely a problem, but government is a bigger issue because they have the ability to force a population: corporations can only influence (we can have a different discussion about how corporations give you “choice” but not really, but i think they’re different cases, and government is clear cut)

Ain't government is comprised of corporate owners? President. Then there's lobbying/bribing. Create/participate in wars. Sell weapons to the human rights respecting Saudi. And when corporations die, they take the people's money.

That's beyond giving me a choice. Lols.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#330

Post by luckylion » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:41 AM UTC

pstuart wrote: post #289

olalonde wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw the comment you are referring to and it was most likely wrong. The majority of Chinese people are genuinely "pro-China" and there are vastly more regular Chinese people than professional sockpuppets. That being said, I do agree with keeping politics off HN and wish it was enforced a bit more strictly.

Information warfare is both political and technological. It's happening all about and is worth discussing in a mindful manner.

There is a difference between discussing information warfare and being a soldier on the battlefield though. "Keeping the politics out", to me at least, means "let's not make this place the battleground". I'd welcome that as well.