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Information operations directed at Hong Kong

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Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#241

Post by dqpb »

diNgUrAndI wrote: post #211

What about "pro-democracy" activists using twitter or fb smearing the police with their own version of truth? It seems like twitter judges which version of truth to allow based on whether twitter censorship team likes the arguments or not.

It might seem like that if you don't read the article.

If you did read the article, you would see this:

> All the accounts have been suspended for a range of violations of our platform manipulation policies, which we define as:

- Spam

- Coordinated activity

- Fake accounts

- Attributed activity

- Ban evasion

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#242

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

dang wrote: post #160
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith.

We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we are an educated, wealthy, and politically engaged group. As propaganda becomes more sophisticated, it's likely - if not inevitable - that it will target us. It's the responsibility of the moderators of our online spaces to protect us from propaganda, else Hacker News is used as a weapon, to ill or to good - a possibility that you must be aware of.

Distinguishing between propaganda and genuinely held positions is difficult, and approaches impossible as propaganda technology becomes more sophisticated. For this reason, I think it's reasonable to suggest that certain viewpoints are simply not welcome on Hacker News. There are some easy examples: racist or sexist views being one of them. I presume that someone expressing racist viewpoints, no matter how eloquently stated, is not welcome to do so on Hacker News. Then there are more difficult problems, which stem from a complex web of related judgements. To address these, I suggest reflecting on your own moral principles, and considering what ideals are worth protecting in the face of propaganda. In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self governance. And there's little question that the alternative Hong Kong faces would be tragic - China is demonstrably a country with little freedoms afforded to its people and large-scale human rights violations being carried out all the time. The demonstrators in Hong Kong will not be let off easy for the risks they're taking, should they fail.

In short: like it or not, HN is a tool which will be wielded by oppressors, and will likely be an effective tool at that. Identifying oppressors is difficult but identifying the values of oppressors is easier.

Also worth note: HN is inextricably linked to YC, which has financial investments in China. If you don't want to be views as having a pro-China bias, you need to put in extra work to remove the foot from your mouth.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#243

Post by interpenetrate »

mythrwy wrote: post #236
interpenetrate wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you gotta love the language: "coordinated state-backed operations" are banned. such careful language. what does that make USAID, who is undoubtedly responsible for shaping this discourse? perhaps an "uncoordinated" state-backed operation? and what does that make twitter? it's not enough to call everyone here "dumb" or "sheeps," because all of the middle-class americans on this wretched forum are specifically acting i…

I'd be surprised if many or any posters on this forum want to "topple China". Probably more just believe the current government of China should behave differently.

yes just like they just believed the government of libya should've behaved differently... the point is to provide an explanation as to why people here just happen to share the same opinion as those "uncoordinated" U.S.-led operations whose explicit goal is to topple china.

also it's important to note that not everyone in the U.S. who is exposed to U.S. propaganda is going to develop the same opinion (specifically those internally colonized nations such as immigrants and people of color otherwise). so why the hacker news crowd, why reddit, why twitter? the answer is so obvious it hurts. so my comment cannot convince 99.9% of the people who read it but perhaps there are one or two people to whom i can offer some solace (such as the OP of this chain). not interested in debate

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#244

Post by adammenges »

ospider wrote: post #237
ryanchankh wrote: post #22

HongKonger here. I have some friends in China posting similar anti-protest posts on WeChat social media. It's like the news they read has a completely different story than what it's being told in legitimate new sources. The problem of fake news does become very apparent, and I hope people in China can eventually gain awareness or at least start to question the validity of their news sources.

Native Chinese here. Hacker news have been a great place to learn new things to me for 5 years. But the political views on Hacker news are somewhat naive to me. It seems that the Chinese Government is always evil and wrong, but why haven't the government collapsed after so many years if there were no people supporting them? People in China, at least those millions people who are able to cross the Great Firewall, know…

This doesn’t make sense. The slaving government in ancient Egypt was supported for a long time. Just because a form of government exists doesn’t mean it isn’t abusive to some of it’s people or to other countries.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#245

Post by woah »

dang wrote: post #160
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

I agree that there is nothing wrong with people sincerely stating their pro-Chinese government views, even if they focus only on China-related topics in a way that makes them look like a sock puppet.

But that’s the moral hazard of being on the side of an entity that makes extensive use of astro-turfing. Its sincere supporters are more likely to be perceived as sock puppets.

There’s another discussion to be had about whether one should discount the opinions of those who live under a state of pervasive censorship, but that’s a lot more nuanced since we all have our own filter bubbles.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#246

Post by noarchy »

tareqak wrote: post #174
noarchy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about state media that is already taxpayer-funded? Do they really get an exception here?

The quote in my comment has "independent public broadcasters". I think they will depend on third parties in order to make that determination.

That was my assumption as well. I can't imagine they'd put the North Korean state broadcasters on the same level as BBC or CBC.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#247

Post by NeedMoreTea »

kmonsen wrote: post #191
dang wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

I think what is missing in most the the China and HN discussions is that HN is not blocked by the great firewall, so it is much easier for regular people living in China to participate. They will naturally have more pro-China views. Just like residents of every country will have more positive views of that country. And when that country is criticized they will be even more defensive and reflectively pro what is criti…

I don't see it as quite that simple. I think the difference is that dissent is, to varying extent, suppressed in China. Which can lead to a homogeneity of view that looks suspicious, even when it may not be. I suspect many Chinese who do have sympathy for events in HK would be circumspect expressing that. Just as was the case in former East Germany or Soviet Russia, wearing your views on your sleeve comes with consequences. What I privately think and what I write online may be two very different species, or maybe I avoid certain subjects entirely online.

Many Americans, Brits, HKers and other nationalities usually find people are supportive of some aspects of their country but openly criticise other aspects, sometimes vocally, sometimes by demonstrations. Unless you step over into hate speech and incitement that comes without consequence. Even America, which often seems from the outside to be one of the more blindly patriotic nations, has a good and healthy proportion who will criticise. Then there's us cynical Brit's who, at times, seem to have a majority criticising most things about Britain and reserve pride and flags for very special occasions. :)

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#248

Post by throwawayxx879 »

This is a good start, but there are well coordinated manipulation networks for conflicts around the world, that seem to run with impunity, sometimes inciting violence and fomenting hate. Then there are verified account of journalists/commentators and public figures who seem to be paid to Tweet particular narratives. There are other verified accounts that serve as a nexus of hate on Twitter, whose large follower counts give them a patina of invincibility. It’s interesting that Twitter has the will to enforce its rules in some situations, but not in others.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#249

Post by ryacko »

ospider wrote: post #237
ryanchankh wrote: post #22

HongKonger here. I have some friends in China posting similar anti-protest posts on WeChat social media. It's like the news they read has a completely different story than what it's being told in legitimate new sources. The problem of fake news does become very apparent, and I hope people in China can eventually gain awareness or at least start to question the validity of their news sources.

Native Chinese here. Hacker news have been a great place to learn new things to me for 5 years. But the political views on Hacker news are somewhat naive to me. It seems that the Chinese Government is always evil and wrong, but why haven't the government collapsed after so many years if there were no people supporting them? People in China, at least those millions people who are able to cross the Great Firewall, know…

People generally are naive. Many things can be said about that, I recommend reading Leary’s eight-circuit model of consciousness.

Why do people support bad governments? I recommend reading about Havel's greengrocer.

Obviously the Chinese government is capable of doing some things right or it would, as you say, collapse.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#250

Post by Leary »

adammenges wrote: post #244
ospider wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native Chinese here. Hacker news have been a great place to learn new things to me for 5 years. But the political views on Hacker news are somewhat naive to me. It seems that the Chinese Government is always evil and wrong, but why haven't the government collapsed after so many years if there were no people supporting them? People in China, at least those millions people who are able to cross the Great Firewall, know…

This doesn’t make sense. The slaving government in ancient Egypt was supported for a long time. Just because a form of government exists doesn’t mean it isn’t abusive to some of it’s people or to other countries.

Just because a government is abusive to some of its people doesn't mean it has no value. Just look at the US
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