Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#171

Post by pja » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #147

pja wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. BMW electric Mini is due to go on the market in spring 2020 - they’re manufacturing them now in Oxford. I guess that counts as a 'real electric car'. Whether it’s a great one remains to be seen.…

The EPA range of the electric mini is 114 miles, the Model 3LR is 310 miles. Make sure you use the same measurement standard when comparing vehicles: the WLTP standard massively overstates range.

The LR version of the model 3 costs a lot more than the Mini is projected to cost. Even the stock Model 3 costs £12k more than the currently planned price of the electric Mini (both including UK electric car grants.)

That’s why I compared the Mini with the range of the ordinary Model 3 & not the LR version. The price difference between the stock models is wide enough already - it seems completely unreasonable to compare a £25k electric vehicle with a £45k one!

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#172

Post by Avshalom » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #165

green-eclipse wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla seems to have the advantage that investors are willing to supply it with endless amounts of cash to fuel it's unprofitable operations year after year. In its 16 year history, it has never turned an annual profit. It has lost billions and billions of dollars. Tesla just received another $2 billion lifeline infusion earlier this year. Other automakers have to play by more sane financial rules.

That's exactly what the same people also said about Amazon.

yes and being able to run at a loss for decades was also an advantage for Amazon.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#173

Post by amyjess » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

acd wrote: post #32

jansan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has traditionally been a station wagon country. Although SUVs are everywhere now, you still see more station wagons. As I see it, SUVs are used as a status symbol and they have the advantage of an elevated driving position. Station wagons are generally used by people who "do stuff", who have to transport things or drive long distances. It it the car of the practical thinkers. Station wagons are also driven by…

One could make a mix between station wagon and suv. All it requires is height adjustable dampers. Elevation is a classic status symbol think castle locations. Upper class started driving elevated cars SUVs and middle class want to move up in status.

The Subaru Outback comes to mind.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#174

Post by ulfw » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

martin_bech wrote: post #137

ulfw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that even remotely similar? Wow

The Model 3 Performance and the Taycan? They are about the same size, 0-100, top speed, range, charge rate etc etc. I'll admit that the Taycan will be very nice looking, but it will also be about twice the price, if going for the same performance.

You know, cars aren't just about performance numbers. Or nobody would buy a Rolls Royce over a Golf GTI.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#175

Post by amyjess » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #106

gexla wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if "looks cool" is the same thing as status (probably not) but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road. Maybe the only competitor for worst on the list of cool factor is the mini van. Much of the US is a truck culture. You can drive more places and carry more cargo than anything else. In this case, status becomes proudly declaring yourself as blue collar as opposed…

> SUV's are simply trucks for which the cargo is the family rather than a lawnmower. In this discussion something should be pointed out: in the US there is a whole segment of SUV that is basically a truch chassis with a passenger compartment. This whole segment of car is more or less unknown outside the US. In the rest of the world the big SUV is the X5/Q7 segment, and below that there are smaller types of SUVs and c…

Body-on-frame SUVs are also big in Australia. Most of the major companies there make one: Ford Everest, Holden TrailBlazer, Toyota Fortuner, etc.

Oddly enough, in the US body-on-frame SUVs are basically dying. They're only viable in the full-size segment, which is nonexistent in Europe. And we only have four companies that make them in that segment. We have the GM triplets (Chevy Tahoe/Suburban, GMC Yukon family, Cadillac Escalade family), the Ford twins (Ford Expedition/Lincoln Navigator), the Nissan twins (Nissan Armada/Infiniti QX80), and some offerings from Toyota (the Toyota Sequoia and the Toyota Land Cruiser/Lexus LX twins). And the only reason these still exist is because there are some upper-middle-class people who want to tow a boat or an RV trailer while hauling the whole family, and that's hard to do with a unibody (tho I'd love to see how the new Ford Explorer handles that, being RWD and all).

Smaller body-on-frame SUVs died here a long time ago, with the remaining stragglers being the Jeep Wrangler and Toyota 4Runner/Lexus GX twins... and both of those are also sold in Europe (with the latter being called the Toyota Land Cruiser in Europe, while Toyota in the US uses the Land Cruiser name for a larger SUV).

Honestly, I'm expecting full-size body-on-frame SUVs to eventually start dying off here as crossovers get larger and more powerful. Big crossovers like the Chevy Traverse can replace the Tahoe for most purposes that don't involve towing. And I'm definitely expecting the new Ford Explorer to cannibalize Expedition sales... it's almost as big now, and it's actually RWD. If Ford ever decides to make a second-generation Flex on a stretched Explorer platform, that could put the Expedition in a world of hurt (and I'm convinced the reason Ford has let the Flex die on the vine on purpose to keep it from torpedoing the Expedition). I don't think the big ones will go away entirely, because... well, because boats, but it's definitely going to become a much more niche segment.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#176

Post by hbarka » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #135

pmorici wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

Except the Tesla isn't a "really great car". The Model 3 is basically an upscale take on a page out of the FCA playbook. It's a straight line rocket with a middle of the road interior crowned by a massive touchscreen. Don't get me wrong, there's definitively something to be said for that but Tesla does not make good all around vehicles. Tesla make vehicles that excel at a few things and are mediocre in most other reg…

Despite the false narratives like this, Tesla really is a great car to drive. https://youtu.be/xpFe8k1vjcg

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#177

Post by CrazyStat » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #151

pmorici wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

Official range numbers come from a government testing cycle (EPA in the US), so you should get the listed range under more or less the same conditions with any car.

Over 17.5k miles (mostly highway driving, AC pretty much always running) I'm within 2% of the EPA rated range/efficiency on my Model X.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#178

Post by kgwgk » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #165

green-eclipse wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla seems to have the advantage that investors are willing to supply it with endless amounts of cash to fuel it's unprofitable operations year after year. In its 16 year history, it has never turned an annual profit. It has lost billions and billions of dollars. Tesla just received another $2 billion lifeline infusion earlier this year. Other automakers have to play by more sane financial rules.

That's exactly what the same people also said about Amazon.

> In its 16 year history, it has never turned an annual profit.

I don’t think that’s something that could be said about Amazon.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#179

Post by adrr » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

martin_bech wrote: post #137

ulfw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that even remotely similar? Wow

The Model 3 Performance and the Taycan? They are about the same size, 0-100, top speed, range, charge rate etc etc. I'll admit that the Taycan will be very nice looking, but it will also be about twice the price, if going for the same performance.

You don't buy a Porsche for 0 to 100 performance as there are better cars on the market for that. You buy a Porsche because you want the fastest track cars that will best any other car on the Nurburgring. The Taycan will be the fastest production electric car on the Ring.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#180

Post by mjamesaustin » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #135

pmorici wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

Except the Tesla isn't a "really great car". The Model 3 is basically an upscale take on a page out of the FCA playbook. It's a straight line rocket with a middle of the road interior crowned by a massive touchscreen. Don't get me wrong, there's definitively something to be said for that but Tesla does not make good all around vehicles. Tesla make vehicles that excel at a few things and are mediocre in most other reg…

Tesla's cars utterly dominate the sales charts for every segment they are in. If they're only being bought as a niche car, then I guess every other luxury automaker's cars are even more niche.

As an owner of a Model 3, I will say that it isn't just a really great car, it's the best car I've ever owned or driven. There are SO MANY different elements of the car-owning experience Tesla redesigned to make dramatically better for the user, not to mention the incredible performance of the car.