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‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

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Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#71

Post by dastx »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #58
dastx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Londoner here. I've never worked in NYC but having been there for pleasure I can tell you things like commuting will be a lot easier (possibly even cheaper? Weekly tickets will set you back 35 quid if you commute from zone 1 and 2). My wife is American and recently quit her job with Delta (she's done both office jobs there and she's also flown as an FA). And based on her experience I can tell you you'll have a much b…

More typically you will be commuting from further out Zones 1 and 2 properties are SV levels of expensive - your looking at £4k to 5k year for a season ticket from an affordable area.

Disagree, you can find plenty of places in zone 2 that are fairly affordable, especially for software engineers. If you're willing to share with strangers (as is so often the case these days), it's even cheaper. Bear in mind that when you go further out, what you're saving in housing, likely just moves to a season ticket so the savings are much less, but you add additional time to your commute.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#72

Post by PopeDotNinja »

explorigin wrote: post #59
ck425 wrote: post #37

Shouldn't all 'software engineers' be 'product engineers'? I don't really get his point, all he's describing is what any good engineer should be doing anyway.

In short, it would be wrong to expect all software engineers to be product engineers. It takes more than code-monkey experience to foresee markets needs and develop to them. In some ways it's the difference between a mechanical engineer and an industrial engineer. One makes machines, the other optimizes processes.

Just an FYI, saying 'code-monkey' at work can get you in trouble in some places. The sun is setting on the use of 'xxxxx-monkey'. Unintended cultural references & all that.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#73

Post by philote »

scarface74 wrote: post #55
cryptozeus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people or companies generally look for product engineers ? For job postings I normally have not seen such role defined.

I can usually tell by the interview process. Three years ago I interviewed (and received offers) from two companies paying about the same. Company 1: First question was to do a merge sort on the board. Second question was to do some sql statements. Company 2: “We are starting a new greenfield project and all we have are two developers who have been writing PowerBuilder code, stored procedures, and they are just learn…

There's really no consensus on what some of these job titles mean. IMO if it has "engineer" in the title, you're doing more than just writing algorithms. I'd say that in your example, Company 1 was looking for a developer or programmer, whereas the other company was looking for a software engineer or product engineer.

Also, IMO the term "Product Engineer" does not denote that it has to be software-related at all. It could be someone who designs shoes or training seminars or whatever (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_engineering).

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#74

Post by josephwegner »

I read this article with a bit of hunger and nostalgia to return to my former life as a startup engineer... but I think upon further thought I'm leaning against it again.

As a bit of history, I worked as an engineer at startups for most of my early career. Mostly frontend work, all SaaS businesses. I enjoyed it. I wore many hats, and got to think about the customer a lot. I didn't like always worrying about my paycheck and job security. 2 years ago I transitioned to a Platform Support Engineer at Heroku. Now I manage folks on that team.

The thing I loved most about startup life was getting to be engaged in every facet of the business - my voice carried weight in technical aspects, financial aspects, support, culture, etc. I have a natural aptitude for things beyond just programming, and think often about the larger business and customer impact. It was great being able to speak up and leverage those parts of my brain.

However, part of me thinks that perhaps the joy I found in being involved everywhere was that it made me feel smart. I felt like I could be an expert in every domain. But that's not really realistic, is it? Today I work in a very small domain with a limited breadth of responsibility... but I am _the_ expert on developer support. There is no one else in the organization (outside of my team, of course) that can challenge my thoughts on support, because I am the expert. Similarly, I would not dare challenge the expertise of our finance team. I know quite a bit about finance, but they blow me out of the water. They're specialized, and undeniably make better decisions than me.

Is it really that much better to feel smart and make average/bad decisions based on intuition? I'm not sure. I think as far as output goes, specializing is better.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#75

Post by julius_set »

Great article, BUT there are no examples of what the hell a product engineer ACTUALLY does.

It might be good to point out that data driven development is key. A product engineer collect insights with each feature that is created backed BY ACTUAL DATA and not armchair hypothesis

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#76

Post by rvz »

9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #10
auvi wrote: post #6

If everyone follows this advice then who will implement the system? Outsource to external professional firms? We already outsource to accountants, lawyers, ad agencies etc.

Cheap labour and automating/using what is already out there. That's how the cycle goes, eventually writing the code will be a low paying factory job. Our industry is extremely welcome to new comers and not protecting it like doctors etc do.

> Our industry is extremely welcome to new comers and not protecting it like doctors etc do.

The protecting nature of professions that involve impacting the life of an individual such as the healthcare, aviation, transportation etc is indeed justified. I would need very strong qualified AND certified candidates if the requirement was to write safety-critical software that ensures the safety of humans or animals; especially in self-driving vehicles.

Startups in the tech industry can easily undo mistakes or revert it, along side bootcamps training up anyone to make a career-change into the profession. Doctors cannot afford to make mistakes that risks danger to life. Thus, they require years of training/studying in medcial school to become fully qualified.

So yes, eventually eveyone (including doctors, lawyers, etc) will have the perk of being able to write code and will assist in the automation of their jobs, but not exactly absorbing or replacing their skills.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#77

Post by cryptozeus »

philote wrote: post #73
scarface74 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can usually tell by the interview process. Three years ago I interviewed (and received offers) from two companies paying about the same. Company 1: First question was to do a merge sort on the board. Second question was to do some sql statements. Company 2: “We are starting a new greenfield project and all we have are two developers who have been writing PowerBuilder code, stored procedures, and they are just learn…

There's really no consensus on what some of these job titles mean. IMO if it has "engineer" in the title, you're doing more than just writing algorithms. I'd say that in your example, Company 1 was looking for a developer or programmer, whereas the other company was looking for a software engineer or product engineer. Also, IMO the term "Product Engineer" does not denote that it has to be software-related at all. It…

I think product engineer is used loosely within the software field same as product manager and product engineer. Not to be taken literally as per Wikipedia definition.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#78

Post by cryptozeus »

scarface74 wrote: post #55
cryptozeus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people or companies generally look for product engineers ? For job postings I normally have not seen such role defined.

I can usually tell by the interview process. Three years ago I interviewed (and received offers) from two companies paying about the same. Company 1: First question was to do a merge sort on the board. Second question was to do some sql statements. Company 2: “We are starting a new greenfield project and all we have are two developers who have been writing PowerBuilder code, stored procedures, and they are just learn…

Interesting point.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#79

Post by scarface74 »

philote wrote: post #73
scarface74 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can usually tell by the interview process. Three years ago I interviewed (and received offers) from two companies paying about the same. Company 1: First question was to do a merge sort on the board. Second question was to do some sql statements. Company 2: “We are starting a new greenfield project and all we have are two developers who have been writing PowerBuilder code, stored procedures, and they are just learn…

There's really no consensus on what some of these job titles mean. IMO if it has "engineer" in the title, you're doing more than just writing algorithms. I'd say that in your example, Company 1 was looking for a developer or programmer, whereas the other company was looking for a software engineer or product engineer. Also, IMO the term "Product Engineer" does not denote that it has to be software-related at all. It…

Yet and still the stereotypical “software engineer” jobs at big tech companies focus on your ability to do leetCode style whiteboard coding and “reversing a binary tree”.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#80

Post by dangerface »

sterileopinions wrote: post #35
arpa wrote: post #23

Would people please stop shitting on php. It's no better nor worse than let's say, ruby. It gets shit done. It is a valid tool very widely used in the wild.

There are decades of history behind every criticism of PHP? Do you just want people to ignore them? PHP can be a bit of a punching bag, even when it's not topical. But it's not exactly unwarranted.

Every language has valid criticism, you use the right tool for the right job. When you single out one of your tools as "bad" it just highlights that you don't understand what job the tool is for.

learn your tools.

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