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Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

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Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#131

Post by cybersnowflake »

mft_ wrote: post #86
Jare wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be absurd, nobody is trying to, or needs to, punish the UK. This is simply what happens when you jump without a parachute. There are so many things broken in the Brexit process, broken things that exist inside the UK alone, that the mere notion that the problems are caused intentionally by some foreign bad guys is just, well, absurd.

Seriously, irrespective of which ever side of the debate you stand, you must see that the EU has a strong, strong incentive to make this as difficult for the UK as possible?

No man you're hallucinating all those talking heads, articles, multimillion dollar campaigns, and plain logic.The EU secretly doesn't care or even WANTS the UK to leave according to the wise bearded mean of HN.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#132

Post by martin8412 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #62
throwaway122379 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2 year window and article 50 was an addition from UK ironically Also they did not have to lodge the article 50 letter when they did, they could have spent years preparing and figuring out what it is exactly they want to accomplish. Finally the EU gave an extension twice now for them to figure out what they want, instead of doing that UK govt doubled down on stupid.

If the UK wants more time, they should just revoke article 50 and then activate it again later on. I don't understand this whole "will the EU grant an extension?" business.

They can't just revoke article 50 to only reenact it later on. A retraction of article 50 would have to be in good faith. A European court came to that conclusion.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#133

Post by jimnotgym »

rvz wrote: post #97
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

> Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You say that, (Even if it is a joke) but here in the UK, this is exactly the same as the 'People's Vote' that gives the final say to the people on how the Brexit process should progress, despite the UK already voting leave in 2016. Democracy doesn't care on how 'close' the result was, the people voted to leave and that should be…

> This vote is an instruction from the electorate

Since sovereignty is often put forward as a reason to leave the EU do you not see the irony in that statement?

It was an 'advisory referendum' according to the act of parliament that instituted it. Referendums cannot be binding on parliament in the UK, or parliament would not be sovereign any more!

> When the Scottish independence referendum of 2014 happened, they accepted the result to remain and that was that.

Well no they didn't. 'They', meaning the people of Scotland I presume, elected the Scottish National Party to 56 of the 59 seats available to Scottish MPs in the election 2 years later. The SNP actively campaign to leave the UK. Democracy is not an event, it is a process.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#134

Post by martin8412 »

Asooka wrote: post #60
throwaway122379 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2 year window and article 50 was an addition from UK ironically Also they did not have to lodge the article 50 letter when they did, they could have spent years preparing and figuring out what it is exactly they want to accomplish. Finally the EU gave an extension twice now for them to figure out what they want, instead of doing that UK govt doubled down on stupid.

> UK govt doubled down on stupid Seeing all that happen, I'm convinced we should abolish voting. Instead of voting for prime minister, etc. they should be chosen at random from the general population the same way we do jury duty. Monte Carlo government. It can't be any worse than the current government and since it's random selection you can't have the process corrupted.

The UK does not vote on the PM.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#135

Post by mikedilger »

mikedilger wrote: post #28
te_chris wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a govt risk assessment document, not just “politics”. Assuming you’re a brexiteer....what exactly is the positive case for brexit now? Because no one I can hear is making it, merely saying it has to happen, like a visit to one’s in laws that destroys the economy and fractures society.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

I was regurgitating the positive case for Brexit that I've heard, not making a case myself, because the previous commenter said he "had not heard" a positive case that is still relevant today (a sovereignty case is still relevent today). I wasn't making the case myself. I'm sorry 'unelected officials' triggered everybody, but that is what they say.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#136

Post by jimnotgym »

bitL wrote: post #99
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

Leaking such a scare document just tells us that not only voter is uninformed, but also that government is ran by little kids instead of adults. And it's a farce if you have to redo a vote until you get desired outcome (the Lisbon Treaty still left a bad taste). IMO it's all on Cameron and his "competence", destroying UK as an unplanned consequence. Given long standing British democratic tradition, redoing referendum…

> Given long standing British democratic tradition,

It is long standing British democratic tradition that national referendums are unconstitutional.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#137

Post by beaner »

Aeolun wrote: post #89
beaned wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether vaccines work or not may have a scientific answer, but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves. Similarly, people make the individual choices to purchase an apple or invite someone into their home. EU participation is just this choice at scale, and the British people have every right to vote on it directly.

> but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves It should not be. If they represented the Brexit correctly, and instead asked the real question “Would you like your life to get worse in pretty much every possible way?”, then how many people would have voted yes?

It should not be up to individuals to decide whether to buy an apple or invite someone into their home?

Your rephrasing is not only hyperbolic but also just a theory. Obviously people would answer no. You might assume people are dumber than they are. Perhaps they are weighing factors you are not which lead them to believe that brexit will not have the outcome you think it will.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#138

Post by jimnotgym »

beaner wrote: post #30
untog wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because one leaked document is controversial (and last I checked the Steele dossier isn't confirmed to be all that inaccurate) we should disregard all leaked communications? That feels like faulty logic. Should we have dismissed Watergate because it was based on leaked information?

The problem isn't that it's leaked, it's that it's taken as true without further regard, despite changes since then or even untruths contained within, because it is what some people want to believe to be true. The "leak" aspect makes it seem secretive and therefore more revealing, when in reality it likely lulled from inaccuracy.

Despite changes since when? When Boris took over 3 weeks ago? You are joking, surely?

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#139

Post by beaner »

renaudg wrote: post #110
beaned wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether vaccines work or not may have a scientific answer, but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves. Similarly, people make the individual choices to purchase an apple or invite someone into their home. EU participation is just this choice at scale, and the British people have every right to vote on it directly.

> it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves. Because of herd immunity, this is not just a personal choice but a public health matter. It's no more their choice to use vaccines than it is theirs to drunk drive.

Then perhaps this is not the appropriate metaphor. Which is why I clarified with choices regarding food and shelter.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#140

Post by esotericn »

martin8412 wrote: post #130
esotericn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's over-egging it a bit. You can drive from Dover to almost all of the mainland UK in 8 hours. The Scottish Highlands will take a bit longer. It'll be a problem, but I doubt being close to the port will make a difference.

I mean.. If the people crossing the border at Dover are as slow as the average person passing the British border, then the backlog will be all the way from Dover to Inverness

The backlog relevant for those importing goods would be on the French side?
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