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Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

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Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#81

Post by beachy »

sleavey wrote: post #57
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

Indeed. A recent poll was quoted on yesterday's "Any Questions?" show on BBC Radio 4 by a Brexiteer, which apparently asked the public "should MPs represent their own views or those of their constituents?". Some small number of voters - I forget, but it was around 7% - thought they should represent their own views and the rest thought those of their constituents. This was, in the Brexiteer's view, evidence that MPs d…

Questions such as "should we stay in the EU" can't be answered by experts.

Economists could perhaps answer some small parts of it - like "will this be net plus for the economy over next 5 years", but even then I'd imagine there would be little consensus.

Questions this huge are really the sort of thing that should be put to the unwashed masses. They know as much as anyone else - not much.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#82

Post by rusk »

ssl232 wrote: post #6

A peculiarity: the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters, who have been in power for the past 9 years and who have driven most of the Brexit rhetoric. The south east is also nearest the Channel Tunnel and ferry ports to the continent, and so their food, drugs, etc. will suffer the least delay, least spoilage, etc. in the case of a "No Deal" Brexit.

Mate you've got that backwards. If indeed as you say they're dependent on stuff coming over the channel then it is they that will be worst affected, come a no deal scenario. If there's no deal, all trade is effectively "smuggling". Sure they can do a dance around it, but trade in that direction will be severely impacted.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#83

Post by jimnotgym »

creaghpatr wrote: post #35
vesinisa wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government. E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

It’s right there in the article: >The Financial Times quoted government insiders who rebutted the document, saying it is not a realistic scenario for a no-deal Brexit and pointing out that it was written under the leadership of Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May, and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway. >”This document is from when ministers were blocking what needed to be d…

Still not quite right. The document was prepared by the civil service while Teresa May was Prime Minister. Teresa May is in the same party as Boris, not the opposition as you claim. Boris' team are claiming, not that this document is wrong, but that it is an out of date analysis, and that Boris has turned things around since he took office on 24th July. Perhaps he really is that good that he has done in 3 weeks what May couldn't do in 3 years (some of which time he was a senior cabinet member himself).

Paint it on the side of a bus, with 350 million other lies.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#84

Post by thomascgalvin »

dionian wrote: post #67
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

things as important as democratic representation and national sovereignty should require the support of the people, they can be informed by experts, but should not have their decisions made by experts when it comes to peaceful self-determination

There isn't a good answer to this dilemma.

On the one hand, you're right, the people are sovereign and should not have their rights trampled by an unelected hegemony.

On the other hand, people are stupid, and often too stupid to be trusted to make decisions related to complex matters on which the general person is not an expert.

Worse, bad actors have figured out how to exploit freedom of speech to weaponize this stupidity. So we're now in a position where a fundamental human right is also the direct cause of significant human misery.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#85

Post by bigbaguette »

beaned wrote: post #61
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

Whether vaccines work or not may have a scientific answer, but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves. Similarly, people make the individual choices to purchase an apple or invite someone into their home. EU participation is just this choice at scale, and the British people have every right to vote on it directly.

For some vaccines, it's not an individual choice. People who choose not to use them for themselves put the rest of the population at risk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#86

Post by mft_ »

Jare wrote: post #10
cybersnowflake wrote: post #2

The EU and the British establishment will do everything they can to punish the UK for their insolence. All the more reason it was a good idea to #Leave. Better to take whatever lumps that come now.

Don't be absurd, nobody is trying to, or needs to, punish the UK. This is simply what happens when you jump without a parachute. There are so many things broken in the Brexit process, broken things that exist inside the UK alone, that the mere notion that the problems are caused intentionally by some foreign bad guys is just, well, absurd.

Seriously, irrespective of which ever side of the debate you stand, you must see that the EU has a strong, strong incentive to make this as difficult for the UK as possible?

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#88

Post by jimnotgym »

bitL wrote: post #66
vesinisa wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government. E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

It's probably the same as when US army evaluates catastrophic scenario that Canada, Mexico or Belize invade USA (or the other way round). There are probably 10 similar scenarios ranging from Brexit net-positive and rebirth of UK empire dominating inept EU down to loss of Scotland/North Ireland and economic collapse, which is what government should do anyway. I guess there's nothing else to write about in the newspape…

According to the report itself this is not the worst case scenario, it is the realistic one.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#89

Post by Aeolun »

beaned wrote: post #61
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

Whether vaccines work or not may have a scientific answer, but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves. Similarly, people make the individual choices to purchase an apple or invite someone into their home. EU participation is just this choice at scale, and the British people have every right to vote on it directly.

> but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves

It should not be.

If they represented the Brexit correctly, and instead asked the real question “Would you like your life to get worse in pretty much every possible way?”, then how many people would have voted yes?

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#90

Post by ssijak »

ssl232 wrote: post #6

A peculiarity: the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters, who have been in power for the past 9 years and who have driven most of the Brexit rhetoric. The south east is also nearest the Channel Tunnel and ferry ports to the continent, and so their food, drugs, etc. will suffer the least delay, least spoilage, etc. in the case of a "No Deal" Brexit.

Not that the drugs are distributed through the island with horse carts..
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