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Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

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Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#71

Post by persistent »

Havoc wrote: post #56

>and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway. All the more reason to be alarmed. The guy seems like a complete loose cannon - more likely to cause additional chaos that help. Really starting to wonder whether this isn't one big geopolitical campaign to short an entire country.

Ever read "The Shock Doctrine"? It lays out how the rich cause and exploit catastrophe to consolidate and strengthen their holdings.

https://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitali...

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#72

Post by rusk »

throwaway122379 wrote: post #17
throwaway122378 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The positive case for brexit is no longer being a part of the EU.

Please elaborate as to exactly why that is a positive?

Hey look, there's plenty of negative things that could be said about the EU … it's not inconceivable that Brexit could even have been a good thing. An economy the size of the UK could have been an effective counter-balance to some of the more hegonmistic aspects, if it were still a "friend". If the whole thing hadn't been hijacked by the regressive factions, and they weren't slowly going round in circles giving 2 fingers to everybody … but that's not what has happened. The Brexit that is unfolding is an unmitigated mess for everybody in the UK bar the elite financial hawks who stand to benefit from it, and it will be a mess for Ireland, and it will especially be a disaster for Northern Ireland. You know who it won't be a disaster for? The rest of Europe …

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#73

Post by vinay427 »

sleavey wrote: post #34
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see…

I'm not actually sure how I feel about direct democracy in general. To provide another example, anyway, even countries like Switzerland that are relatively renowned for their direct democracy don't always make decisions that people approve of in the long term. They were extremely regressive (by Western standards) on the right of women to vote, for instance, and the government is currently dealing with ways to limit freedom of movement with the EU in compliance with a referendum in which the Swiss voted to do so.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#74

Post by inflatableDodo »

arethuza wrote: post #64
Havoc wrote: post #56

>and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway. All the more reason to be alarmed. The guy seems like a complete loose cannon - more likely to cause additional chaos that help. Really starting to wonder whether this isn't one big geopolitical campaign to short an entire country.

Jacob Rees-Mogg's father actually wrote a book called "The Sovereign Individual: The Coming Economic Revolution and How to Survive and Prosper in It"

And also, 'Blood in the Streets: Investment Profits in a World Gone Mad'.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#75

Post by bertil »

wetpaws wrote: post #52
creaghpatr wrote: post #4

Political opposition leaked a scare document? Welcome to politics.

Does it really matter who leaked them if content is true?

You can accuse a leak to be partial, non-representative, timed to harm a party, etc.: that’s what people criticised when Russian secret services leaked emails from the presidential campaign of Hillary Clinton. “True” isn’t enough of a criterion for political coverage: “representative”, “clear”, “informing the voting public” at better objectives.

In this case, it’s an internal document that is proving that the government is not candid about a threat that they are waving.

If (like people who support Boris Johnson) you think that a credible threat of leaving without a Deal helps negotiate against the European Union, that leak can seem political.

If (like people who oppose Boris Johnson) you think that a leaving without a Deal is irresponsible, having official confirmation of that fact is validating.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#77

Post by thih9 »

Simulacra wrote: post #7

If true, would this not point towards avoiding such unions in the future?

I don’t see why, could you elaborate?

To me it could just as well point towards avoiding leaving such unions. Or towards not doing it without a greater majority / more planning / more time / etc.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#78

Post by mft_ »

ssl232 wrote: post #6

A peculiarity: the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters, who have been in power for the past 9 years and who have driven most of the Brexit rhetoric. The south east is also nearest the Channel Tunnel and ferry ports to the continent, and so their food, drugs, etc. will suffer the least delay, least spoilage, etc. in the case of a "No Deal" Brexit.

> the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters

No it's not. Look at a political map of England by geography - everywhere is Conservative, apart from areas associated with major cities, their surrounding areas, and a few small patches.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_...

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#79

Post by mjw1007 »

sleavey wrote: post #34
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see…

I don't think the idea of a vote on a deep constitutional matter is wrong.

But I think it only really works when you have a government saying "we propose to do X, but we'll only do it if the people consent in a referendum".

What doesn't work at all is having a referendum offering a major change that the government proposing the referendum thinks is a bad idea.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#80

Post by sleavey »

dionian wrote: post #67
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

things as important as democratic representation and national sovereignty should require the support of the people, they can be informed by experts, but should not have their decisions made by experts when it comes to peaceful self-determination

Possibly, but if the public were really to be trusted to make decisions on national sovereignty they should not have been asked to decide between the status quo and some abstract, undefined future outside the EU. One of the biggest problems with Brexit was that it meant so many different things to that 52%.
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