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Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

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Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#61

Post by beaned »

burtonator wrote: post #40
sleavey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see…

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

Whether vaccines work or not may have a scientific answer, but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves.

Similarly, people make the individual choices to purchase an apple or invite someone into their home.

EU participation is just this choice at scale, and the British people have every right to vote on it directly.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#62

Post by Wowfunhappy »

throwaway122379 wrote: post #41
ealexhudson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it just points to a. Having a reasonable exit process (the default of two years makes no sense) and b. The public having the patience to understand 40+ years of cooperation can't be rolled back in a matter of months.

The 2 year window and article 50 was an addition from UK ironically Also they did not have to lodge the article 50 letter when they did, they could have spent years preparing and figuring out what it is exactly they want to accomplish. Finally the EU gave an extension twice now for them to figure out what they want, instead of doing that UK govt doubled down on stupid.

If the UK wants more time, they should just revoke article 50 and then activate it again later on. I don't understand this whole "will the EU grant an extension?" business.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#63

Post by mr_sturd »

Havoc wrote: post #56

>and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway. All the more reason to be alarmed. The guy seems like a complete loose cannon - more likely to cause additional chaos that help. Really starting to wonder whether this isn't one big geopolitical campaign to short an entire country.

Exactly what Farage was doing on the night of the vote.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#64

Post by arethuza »

Havoc wrote: post #56

>and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway. All the more reason to be alarmed. The guy seems like a complete loose cannon - more likely to cause additional chaos that help. Really starting to wonder whether this isn't one big geopolitical campaign to short an entire country.

Jacob Rees-Mogg's father actually wrote a book called "The Sovereign Individual: The Coming Economic Revolution and How to Survive and Prosper in It"

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#65

Post by bertil »

creaghpatr wrote: post #35
vesinisa wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government. E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

It’s right there in the article: >The Financial Times quoted government insiders who rebutted the document, saying it is not a realistic scenario for a no-deal Brexit and pointing out that it was written under the leadership of Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May, and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway. >”This document is from when ministers were blocking what needed to be d…

Whether the previous government (same party, same Parliament, same mandate, same objective) is “the opposition” is debatable.

It’s not Labour. It’s not Remainers. Both governments want a deal with the EU. It’s unclear if the minister who leaked that document voted for the existing Deal (several ministers voted against their own government).

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#66

Post by bitL »

vesinisa wrote: post #31
creaghpatr wrote: post #4

Political opposition leaked a scare document? Welcome to politics.

No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government. E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

It's probably the same as when US army evaluates catastrophic scenario that Canada, Mexico or Belize invade USA (or the other way round). There are probably 10 similar scenarios ranging from Brexit net-positive and rebirth of UK empire dominating inept EU down to loss of Scotland/North Ireland and economic collapse, which is what government should do anyway. I guess there's nothing else to write about in the newspapers during summer...

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#67

Post by dionian »

burtonator wrote: post #40
sleavey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see…

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

things as important as democratic representation and national sovereignty should require the support of the people, they can be informed by experts, but should not have their decisions made by experts when it comes to peaceful self-determination

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#68

Post by bigbaguette »

throwaway122379 wrote: post #29
beaner wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU is more than just a trade agreement and there is nothing preventing trade agreements between the UK and the EU from being developed post-brexit.

1st of November, Boris (or whoever is PM then) asks EU for trade deal. They respond with, "great, so about: 1. Irish border and Good Friday agreement 2. EU Citizens rights in UK 3. Payment of billions to which previous UK governments signed up to as EU member 4. How will you ensure low quality food from US does not enter EU"

This is how international trade works. It's intimately intertwined with diplomacy and each party will play according to its own interests, related or not.

Just like Russia could say "no gas for you" if you make too much of a fuss about what happened in Crimea.

Now if the UK's view of its own future diverges from the EU, it's totally normal to see complications appear during negotiations.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#69

Post by martin8412 »

mikedilger wrote: post #28
te_chris wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a govt risk assessment document, not just “politics”. Assuming you’re a brexiteer....what exactly is the positive case for brexit now? Because no one I can hear is making it, merely saying it has to happen, like a visit to one’s in laws that destroys the economy and fractures society.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

The officials in the EU are just as elected as the officials of the UK. They voted for someone to vote for them. Similar to multiple other countries.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#70

Post by privateSFacct »

vesinisa wrote: post #31
creaghpatr wrote: post #4

Political opposition leaked a scare document? Welcome to politics.

No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government. E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

Totally false. And using fear in politics is nothing new. The US now has tariffs on Canada because of the "risk" Canada poses to national security.

The idea that the UK crumbles (the document has things like cancer patients dying, folks with diabetes dying - its just an incredible list) seems far fetched. The UK operated prior to the EU without all these disasters.

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