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Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

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Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the style of control is different, but the effect is the same. In the West we have an illusion of freedom and choice. We get to say whatever we like, we get to go an vote for any approved candidate, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what the oligarchy wants. The biggest issue is that the media is owned by the oligarchy, and so as you note any opinions that fall outside the accepted n…

The effect is most certainly not the same, the fact that we are able to carry on this conversation on an American news site is evidence of that. If the only thing that mattered was what the oligarchy wanted, Trump would have never been elected, because from all accounts he was widely loathed by those in power, even within his own party, not that it makes him a good president, but its compelling evidence that they hav…

> The effect is most certainly not the same, the fact that we are able to carry on this conversation on an American news site is evidence of that.

I believe this study is stating exactly that we could carry on this conversation, up to the point where we all agree on something in enough numbers and possibly decide to take action about it.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#42
post #23
post #4

Living in Australia, I've been exposed to both Hong Kong and mainlander Chinese people and I've developed an opinion. Australia really needs to start working harder to understand them than they do to understand us. In light of the recent disturbances in HK I read things like this paper with renewed interest. The views of the mainlanders on HK are fascinating in how alien they are in contrast to how the Australian pre…

I live and work in Shenzhen and am doing an MBA in Hong Kong. As one mainlander told me, Hong Kong can protest for democracy as much as they want, but independence from the mainland isn't ok, that's the line that can't be crossed. Of course, the government's long-term stance on democracy in Hong Kong is more complicated and he didn't speak to me on behalf of the government. Hong Kong is an extremely touchy subject fo…

The tragic thing is what the protesters seem to want to return to is the by-gone era of the British rule. But that was very much the thing that turned Hong Kong into a place ruled by real estate moguls. The mainland Chinese vision of opening up and fully integrate the area of Hong Kong, Macau and Shenzhen/Canton is something that actually can break the rot and get Hong Kong in on the growth and prosperity that is there right next door.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#43
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be able to elaborate more on your 2nd paragraph?

The one that stands out to me is a girl I know from Shenzhen. Very intelligent, very articulate and someone I've pigeonholed as rising-star-in-leadership-somewhere material. She's basically maintaining what seems to me to be a fairly passionate cross between an attack on the protestors and a defense of Chinese national pride. The two main prongs are that the protestors are disruptive/the protests cause injury (citing…

My guess is the history that mainlanders went through, conjured a very different opinion on what things in life are most important. I don't think reading propaganda will help you understand better because you haven't gone through that history.

I think the answer is hidden in plain sight in the paper:

> "Xinhua news agency issued an opinion that western-style parliamentary democracy would lead to a repetition of the turbulent factionalism of China’s Cultural Revolution (http://j.mp/McRDXk)."

> [The CCP] said that “On the basis of China’s condi- tions. . . we’ll not employ a system of multiple parties holding office in rotation” in order to avoid “an abyss of internal disorder” (http://j.mp/Ldhp25)."

To us in the west, this reads as standard authoritarian propaganda excuses. But maybe they aren't total excuses after all? The Cultural Revolution was a traumatic period and people still remember it. A TLDR based on my understanding:

- Mao, despite being known as a murderer in the west, is regarded (for a part at least) as a hero in China because he did a lot of good in the beginning: getting rid of Japanese invaders, giving everyone an education, building a functioning country.

- After WW2 things went downhill. Mao didn't get along with other CCP members. In order to stay in power he declared a new revolution. Lots of people followed him and idolized him. But the revolution resulted in chaos, anarchy and mob rule. And Mao turned out to be an incompetent post-war policy maker so his policies resulted in famine etc (this is what the west refers to when they say Mao massacred people).

After the Cultural Revolution, I guess the CCP learned that the masses can be easily influenced for the worse, and want to avoid another Mao-like fiasco. And lots of civilians are tired of 150 years of wars, revolution, poverty and disunity, and so they see the CCP as a necessary evil.

This is combined with 100 years of colonialism that came prior to that, which instilled a sense of inferiority (compared to the west) that still still exists today.

So I guess there is a sense that unity and economic prosperity are the most important, everything else is secondary. So when they see various democratic systems, they see various parties bickering with each other at the expense of speed of progress and harmony.

I believe all of this is nearly unimaginable to many westerners because the west has been prosperous for so long. WW2 was disastrous, but in a very different way.

Chinese history is very different from the history that the west went through, so it does not surprise me that the conclusions drawn about what values are important, are different too.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#44
post #40
post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

For the record, I posted this specifically because I feel that it provides a clearer picture of what censorship in China really is like, as opposed to the cartoonishly evil portrayal that most of Western media paints it in. Although I don't condone censorship overall, I do find it interesting and identify that governments will always find it necessary to impose some form of societal control. From this study, it seems…

>it seems to me that the Chinese government chooses to prevent events that may cause conflict and violence. That is almost noble, were it not for the fact that it also helps the government maintain a firm grip of control in all situations.

Every single state acts this way. Every single effective state system at least. It's called "Monopoly on Violence." It is one of the defining characteristics of "modern" state organizations.

Unsanctioned use of violence directly threats the state's power and will quickly call into question the state's legitimacy if the state can't control coordinated or wanton violence.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#45
post #4

Living in Australia, I've been exposed to both Hong Kong and mainlander Chinese people and I've developed an opinion. Australia really needs to start working harder to understand them than they do to understand us. In light of the recent disturbances in HK I read things like this paper with renewed interest. The views of the mainlanders on HK are fascinating in how alien they are in contrast to how the Australian pre…

I had a fascinating conversation with a Korean friend. It is second hand, but some of his friends and colleagues live in HK. According to my friend, HKers in our generation (late 30s, early 40s) have a notion that the resistance is led by young people that have no Chinese identity. And this is offensive to many of them because they lived under British rule. Our generation had a culturally Chinese identity that and we…

It's tempting to frame the current situation as a generational thing, but -- I'm of the same generation, and I'm certainly on the side of the "resistance" so to speak. Most of my friends and colleagues, of all ages, are on the same side.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I posted this specifically because I feel that it provides a clearer picture of what censorship in China really is like, as opposed to the cartoonishly evil portrayal that most of Western media paints it in. Although I don't condone censorship overall, I do find it interesting and identify that governments will always find it necessary to impose some form of societal control. From this study, it seems…

>it seems to me that the Chinese government chooses to prevent events that may cause conflict and violence. That is almost noble, were it not for the fact that it also helps the government maintain a firm grip of control in all situations. Every single state acts this way. Every single effective state system at least. It's called "Monopoly on Violence." It is one of the defining characteristics of "modern" state orga…

That may be the official policy, but I think you only have to glance at the US to see that it doesn't always act on this. Of course, at some scale, government would be forced to act, but there is a lot of space in between where allowing violence to play out could even be beneficial to a ruling party.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#47
post #40
post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

For the record, I posted this specifically because I feel that it provides a clearer picture of what censorship in China really is like, as opposed to the cartoonishly evil portrayal that most of Western media paints it in. Although I don't condone censorship overall, I do find it interesting and identify that governments will always find it necessary to impose some form of societal control. From this study, it seems…

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#48
post #30
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one that stands out to me is a girl I know from Shenzhen. Very intelligent, very articulate and someone I've pigeonholed as rising-star-in-leadership-somewhere material. She's basically maintaining what seems to me to be a fairly passionate cross between an attack on the protestors and a defense of Chinese national pride. The two main prongs are that the protestors are disruptive/the protests cause injury (citing…

Seems incredible to me that people keep thinking that intelligent people have to share the western liberal view of the world that we all have been indoctrinated under.

Interesting observation. Here is another one that I haven't seen yet....

Forcing criticism of the state to stay at the individual level drastically reduces the potential for foreign-funded fake grassroots movements to change the trajectory of domestic policy.

This stops a very common social attack vector that governments in the west readily employ around the world.

Anyone on the receiving end of American foreign policy hostility can understand this protectionist position.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#49

This is more accurate about the current state, people can talk about politic in person in normal volume in public like metro or mall, or just through Wechat as long as you don't affect collective. A lot of People in person say bad words all the time. Everyone has their own point of view, far from brain-washed from some media. There are also politic classes from middle school to college, and requires a high score for…

I wonder what you think of this idea.

US, group protests allowed, gov't actively works for the benefit of industries to the detriment of the workers.

China, individual protests allowed, gov't actively and overtly works for the benefit of the workers through centralized labor union to the detriment of business.

In this framing, US population would need more rights to protest due to the odds being heavily stacked against them.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#50
post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

Sorry, but the US is a constitutional democratic republic with generally functioning rule of law, while the other is an a mercantilist-authoritarian-dictatorship with absolutely ZERO legal accountability to its citizens.

By conflating patterns of US government’s very real human rights abuses (domestic and abroad) with with the CCP’s abuses, you demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of how each political system works and its relationship with its citizens.

Also you’re using a red herring logical fallacy when you say “let’s focus on fixing shit here”. How about trying to do dispute the original premise instead of distracting?

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