California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’ • Hacker News Board

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#51

Post by weeksie » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

api wrote: post #40

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

Build more period. I will rejoice the day the state just revokes planning from local communities. I hate to say that because it feels horrible, but local communities in California run zoning in the most incompetent and self serving way.

It's terrible everywhere but seems especially bad in California. We're hardly immune. Our boro president was celebrating a lawsuit blocking a new 5000(!) unit development as if it was a victory for housing justice.

That said, the YIMBY message seems to be making headway. I hear a lot more pro-housing chatter than I did ten years ago, so at least that's something.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#52

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

weeksie wrote: post #33

bongobongo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is accurate, having lived all over CA and the Northeast. Northeastern cities build shelters because otherwise homeless people would freeze to death in the winter, though. Sometimes the shelters are only available during the freezing months.

We didn't used to build shelters. There was an entire riot in the 80s when the cops removed a homeless encampment that had entirely taken over Tomkins Sq Park in the East Village. I don't know when we started building them (I'm a transplant, circa 2008) but I know there was a qualitative difference from when I'd been to the city in the early 00s versus when I moved so I assume Bloomberg was responsible for building m…

There was a Federal lawsuit and consent decree that forced NYC to house homeless people.

It had a lot of negative impact on poor people in general. Mentally ill homeless people skipped the line for subsidized housing and had an outsized impact on crime and quality of life issues in public housing.

Recent policies to guarantee housing has made NYC something of a magnet. If you live upstate, you may need to wait a year (or more) for a Section 8 voucher, or you can show up in NYC and have interim housing in 48 hours.

Most of the visible homeless related issues are a result of the elimination of involuntary commitment. Without supervision, people won’t take the medications they need because the side effects suck. It’s an impossible problem with no solution.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#53

Post by jquery » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

We don't even prioritize homes for taxpaying citizens. There's an off-putting mentality that having a roof over your head is some kind of "flex" in California. In San Francisco, there's even a strange pride people have that homeless are on the streets ("look at us, we don't hide them away, aren't we great?!").

Although the weather does play a role, in the sense that if we had bad weather and homeless were freezing to death on the streets, I think sufficient shelters would go up immediately.

I keep pushing for us to follow Utah's lead on this issue: https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni...

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#54

Post by jakear » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

jquery wrote: post #30

throebd wrote: post #10

It is a ban of plastic bags from supermarkets. People have some decency, but with ban there is no way to dispose excrements.

Interesting theory, do you have any citations? It does sound plausible and seems to coincide with my experience in San Francisco (the problem did seem to get somewhat worse after the ban), but maybe that's coincidence or just my anecdotal experience.

Food stamps recipients don’t pay the bag tax, which would make me less inclined to believe that theory. But I don’t know how many of these people are on EBT.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#55

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

throebd wrote: post #10

It is a ban of plastic bags from supermarkets. People have some decency, but with ban there is no way to dispose excrements.

> It is a ban of plastic bags from supermarkets.

It's a ban of free or single-use plastic bags from supermarkets; bags must be reusable (with specified strength standards for plastic bags), and there is a minimum charge.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#56

Post by hristov » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

This is very much a problem but it is incorrectly stated as California's problem. This America’s problem. It just so happens that because California is relatively rich, tends to have some of the most tolerable year round weather and the people are relatively compassionate a large percentage of the homeless of all of America are moving to California.

How many times have you heard some politician or just an ordinary person from the south or the midwest say something to the effect “we have a great homelessness policy, we buy each homeless person a bus ticket to California and send them on their way!” They usually say this with pride or with a laugh instead of being embarrassed as they should be. In fact if i remember correctly this was part of the plot of a south park episode (although i do not exactly remember whether south park endorsed or mocked that policy).

So lets not treat this as some failure on California’s part. It is failure of the entire USA. The reasons are the usual ones— lack of mental health treatment for the poor, drug addiction, lack of social safety nets in general. And of course there is one new very scary reason — out of control health care costs that force people that were and should be fully functioning members of society into suffering and homelessness.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#57

Post by zamfi » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #20

archaea_hao wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental healthcare may be relevant to this issue. But the cost of housing is not. These people cannot hold jobs because they are mentally ill. They need state provided institutional care, otherwise they will remain on the streets.

That's a caricature. In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless, and many homeless folks not only can hold jobs, but work them already. Yet they're on the streets anyway because of financial pressure, look like the "these people" you want to lock up, and would probably get picked up under the same ordinance.

That’s also a caricature. Some of the homeless are indeed able to hold job, and pay bills, etc., and just need a little extra help.

They are not usually the ones defecating in the streets.

Others need serious mental help.

The line between the two is not the subtle “infinite variety” you make it out to be.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#58

Post by scurvy » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

Let's also not forget the animal element of street poop here. I live in Russian Hill, a not rough part of SF, and I daily see people neglecting to clean up after their dogs. These people belong to no particular group: young, old, rich, poor, students, tourists, your neighbors.

There's something about this city that attracts people who just don't give a damn. It's unsustainable for those of us who do.

Also, homeless people tend to poop in between parked cars on the street or in doorways. If you see a fresh turd in the middle of the sidewalk, I'd say better than 75% chance it came from Fido, not Frank.

EDIT, I might live in Russian Hill but I walk through the Tenderloin every work day for my commute. I see it all.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#59

Post by maxaf » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #29

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

> we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have Maybe not as bad west coast cities, but since January 1, 2014 things have gotten significantly, noticeably worse. In subway stations and cars, in the streets, in the parks, in Penn Station -- all over. And as you point out we have enough shelter beds for everyone. NYC 2019 is not what good looks like.

I stopped taking the subway with my daughter after running time and time again into subway masturbators and dudes who unzip, whip out, and urinate in public without even bothering to hide in the tunnel. Closer to home on the Upper West Side - a self-described bastion of progressive thought in the city - public urination by the homeless and/or insane is a common sight. Nobody pays attention anymore. The police don’t cite or remove these people. Everyone celebrates “decriminalization” of antisocial behavior as if it’s some kind of an accomplishment. I say destruction of the social public is anything but.

Is SF’s poop problem the next stop for NYC?

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#60

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

jakear wrote: post #54

jquery wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting theory, do you have any citations? It does sound plausible and seems to coincide with my experience in San Francisco (the problem did seem to get somewhat worse after the ban), but maybe that's coincidence or just my anecdotal experience.

Food stamps recipients don’t pay the bag tax, which would make me less inclined to believe that theory. But I don’t know how many of these people are on EBT.

People weren't just using their own bags, they were scavenging bags from the garbage (or the streets—discsrded single use bags were eveeywhere.) Banning designed-as single use bags (and encouraging reuse with a minimum charge per bag) greatly reduced the number of scavengable bags.